But we don't care about hot/cold equity. 5 players aren't going to see the river (if they are, you should be destroying that game )

You can bet when you hit the flop and c/f when you don't. Because so many players are calling with weak ranges you come out ahead even when you fold most of the time.

Sounds great. Now flop some equity and outplay them post. No one at your table but you GAF about SPR, and even if they do there's just no way these Vs are sizing their bets well because of it.

Look at it this way -- you're a dog equitywise to a hand like A7o.

But you absolutely crush that hand postflop. If the flop comes A-high you are not putting another dollar in. If the flop comes k- or j- high, A7 does not realize its equity (or worse, calls as a 20% dog with 2nd/3rd pair)

You want those hands in a big pot.

But this is kinda my point. Our most likely hand we'll flop is TP; does a TP hand want to build a big bloated pot preflop? We won't flop two pair + / draw nearly as often, but when we do, why not attempt to build the pot postflop when we do (and this crowd will most likely allow us to do that)?

GcluelesspotbuildingnoobG

We're expecting $20 bets into $100 pots on the flop/turn?

GI'mnotexpectingthatG

Why not? Other players aren't magically going to have sets and 2p all the time just because the pot is $100. They're getting there with the same awful range they would if the pot was $20. You absolutely want a bigger pot with range, playability and (depending who calls behind) position advantage.

No way I overlimp this. $20 would be my default, but if no one folds for $20 at this table, $25 is fine.

Raise to $28.

Looks like I'm easily outvoted on this one. I have to say, I overlimp in this spot 100% of the time. Oh well. Can still kick around preflop discussion if you want, which might be interesting given how the hand played out anyways (and it plays out in a way where I have difficulty with TP postflop, so perhaps it is my poor postflop play in these spots which leans me to attempting to avoid them).


Preflop (10 players): Hero is LJ with K J

UTG+1 limps, MP1 limps, Hero (with tight HJ/SB but loose CO and Button behind)...

Hero overlimps, HJ folds, CO surprisingly folds, Button raises to $15 (he knows this ain't going to thin the field, he has a wide range, he likes putting money in the pot), SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero...

Button has a wide range, early limp/callers obviously don't have a monster, and I have a nit image (and overlimping with hands even like AA to reraise is easily within my playbook). But we're also closing the action and could just see a flop OOP to only one player with a good multiway hand.

Hero?

GmrpassiveG

I suspect that this is wrong.

But if a $20 raise is really going five ways every time, then the high-hand value of KJ goes up even more. The villains will necessarily be playing a ton of dominated Ks and Js in order to be calling that frequently.

They'll also have to be giving up a ton on the flop, since they're playing 50% of hands. You're ahead of their range with a good hand. Don't be afraid to play a big pot if you hit top pair.

I know my table.

Gdon'tbejellyG

This is EXACTLY what top pair wants to do. You don't want to build a big pot POST flop with top pair because you're likely beat. But PREflop top pair wants to do everything it can to get a small SPR.

i think given our image + our relative position + hand strength this is a pretty trivial raise preflop and my default would be $20.



i think my honest response to that is yes. and that is different to say that we want to be playing a relatively bloated/massive pot postflop as well with TP. But 3-way, in position, $60 in pot, with a hand that is ahead of their range, then sure why not. When we hit TP we almost always have the best hand. In position we will over-realize some of our equity and can sometimes win a hand with K-high.

it's obviously not the strongest hand that we will show up here, but it is certainly good enough to raise it up for value + position. we have a tight image that will help us. our hand can play post-flop in different ways. raise it up and play some post-flop poker imo.

edit: if $20 will almost always go 5-way then I prefer to increase it to get it to 3-way max.

The SPR part I totally agree with.

It's the multiway that I don't agree with.

Creating a small SPR in a HU / 3way pot means we've gotten in huge percentages of stacks with our TP type hand preflop (where we were most likely ahead) and now we've happily handcuffed both ourselves and our opponents to commit for the rest of stacks postflop with TP.

But in a multiway pot, we've only managed to get in a trivial percentage of our stack preflop, and yet have ended up in the same handcuffed situation.

GimoG

call

I just have bad fundamentals regarding SPR, but I just don't really understand this. We have put in a small percentage of our stack - created a decently sized pot with a hand that is ahead of their range, in position. we will over-realize our equity in many spots, and will only have to put in money when we choose - when we make TP which likely crushes them, or have a big draw that also likely crushes them.

I just don't see the problem there.

on this next street, no way I back-raise here and I'm happy to see a flop multi-way with a hand that plays ok multiway.

As you've described it, this seems like a great place for a squeeze. The initial raiser has a very wide range and the limp-callers have had two chances to put money and have just called both times. Plus you have a hand that blocks some premiums and plays well post-flop if called. And, according to you, you have AA in your range! How could you not squeeze here?

I'd make it $85.

barf, ap call

If we had <200 I'd ship pre but we're too deep for that. Hate raising not AI because it looks pretty fishy, V is folding all worse and probably shoving a lot of better hands and we end up having to fold when we could have taken a flop with a good hand to play multiway.

I guess what I'm saying is that creating the small SPR is much different say HU than multiway.

For example, let's say we have AA and a $200 stack.

Option 1: Raise to $20, get it HU, create a $40 pot with $180 behind (SPR 4.5).

Option 2: Raise to $4, go 10ways, create a $40 pot with $196 behind (SPR 4.9).

SPR, and the handcuffed situation it presents postflop, is the ~same. Do we have any preference to what option we take? Noting that in option 1 we got in 10% of stacks vs a lone opponent, whereas in option 2 we got in 2% of stacks vs 9 opponents.

Galthoughnoteveryoneagreeswithmypreferenceinthissp otG

I totally agree that it looks fishy to raise here, but hero is apparently limping his entire range, including AA at times. If he's playing that way for some reason, this is the ideal situation to squeeze.

Call is fine.

But I like a raise to $100.

Still like a raise the first time around. If $20 is really going to go 5 ways, then make it $26-28. If this is the type of table that is going to go 4+ ways to an 9x raise preflop with wide ranges, then I have zero problem at 100 bbs playing a big pot with just TPGK postflop and seeing a low SPR flop with a range, positional, and skill advantage.

Back shove

But these aren't the options that the underlying hand gives us. As you've presented it, we're going to be multiway whether we raise or limp. So our options are more like:

Option 1: Raise to $15 and get five way in a $75 pot with $185 behind.

Option 2: Limp and get five way in a $15 pot with $197 behind.

With AA or with KJs, I prefer option 1.

GG,

A few questions:

1) How often do you limp/raise pre in your game?

2) How often do other players limp/raise pre?

3) What do you expect most of your villains will do when facing a limp/raise pre?

~~~~~

I have to be honest: from reading about GG's game in the past, my first thought was to fold pre first time around. His game dynamics really do not support playing KJ from late-middle position.

With only ~120bb effective, we're really not deep enough to play KJ for its draw potential. It is a fine hand on a J-high flop, but on a K-high flop we're hoping to win a small pot cuz we will lose most big pots.

If I was going to open first time around, I would have gone $25-35, and this would be my standard sizing (until the game adjusts). At 1/2NL, its common to see a 10bb+ open, and really 1/3NL is no different.

As played, I really need to know the answer to the questions above to decide what to do. In a vacuum (i.e. if I was playing somewhere other then my home casino), I would limp/raise to $100 and fold to a 4b. We can probably win this pot unimproved OTF if we get one caller and shove the flop (which is fine as virtually all hands will have a ton of residual equity OTF against our K-high, we could even see hands like [TT-, AK-] fold).

I think calling at this point is fine, only because its $12 to call. For the price, we can see if we pick up a good draw. If we flop a J, great, let's put some $$$ in. If we flop a K, IMA slow down and show-down for a small pot.

Now, one reason this hand is a less then ideal drawing hand is that you probably don't have much fold equity against hands that hit a medium to strong TP or MP+overcard. These hands don't like to fold on the flop. With one-gappers, we'll really want to have some FE to go along with our 8+ out draw. But with KJ, folks are going to have hit a high pair when we have our draw. They're not going to be in a folding mood. So yea, we get paid the 30% of the time our draw comes in. But we are going to have to pay handsomely for those times the rest of the 70%. Because we start out only 120bb deep, the price is too high to really justify it.

Not 20 per se, but generally your opponents' bet sizings in this game are reliable hand strength tells that have little to do with SPR. In other words, you will be the one choosing a deliberate (and usually larger) sizing with KJ on, say, KQ8r at SPR 1.5-2 whereas these Vs will generally be betting less often and more tentatively (and usually smaller) with the same holding, and in many cases, just ck calling.

Long story short, and as basic as all of this is, you really need not worry too deeply about SPR when you have initiative against opponents who play wack ranges poorly/face up.