Thanks for the answers. Always 3 betting here for value, I agree.

Basically, if we check/evaluate, what do we evaluate? Even if we're behind (against a pair most likely) we'd have around 26%. On a call for a PSB/slightly under we'd get around 1:2 to call. So we don't have enough equity if they always have a pair. Question is then if they'd bluff here enough after we check to make the call profitable. I'm not sure how to evaluate this/don't have enough experience in this spot.

If we always shove, do we do it to fold out better hands? Or is it to charge/destroy his equity he's got from non-pair hands like Ax, KQ etc.?

Assuming they'd bluff shove AQ/AK/AJ some of time, but fold if we shove, would a x/call or shove be better?

I feel like I lost the minimum here and not sure that's a good thing.

V is a 50+ white male. He's tight. Limps his fare share. Later saw him limp AK suited.

V raises in late MP to $15 ($1/$3, $525 effective).

Cutoff calls.

Hero thinks about 3-betting with JJ but elects to just call OTB. One limper calls. Pot about $60.

Flop 764, two hearts. Checks to hero. I bet $45.

Limper folds. Original raiser calls. Cutoff folds.

Turn 10. He checks.

Do you bet again? I think we can get called by worse but I'm not sure what worse he raises with and then calls the flop ... especially given that he DOESN'T raise AhKh.

So ... he has QQ or KK here? And we lose the minimum?

I feel like I played this poorly by being too passive. But I didn't think I could get better to fold or worse to call.

Betting won't get better to fold on this board and we have the nut non-pair hand so we shouldn't worry much about protecting our equity as we dominate KQ/AQ, hands that are part of a 3-bet calling range.

Players bad enough to call pre for 1/3 of their stack are often set mining and thus can make a brutally bad fold here. Various other good things can happen, like a call from AQ or a fold from JT.

A call pre against a tight raising range is good. Ott I want to weight him toward 99-88 with his line so I'm betting again. If you're concerned he's bad enough to usually have QQ+ then it's a check obviously.

Ran ak into aa last week and a friend suggested an alternate line that would help mimimize what I lost. Wonder what othera think. I know I should have just bet/folded but I don't think V raises flop very often if I do.

$1\3 nl
Eff. Stacks: about $500

V is 30s. Would describe him as pretty tight. No real history. Based on way he played earlier hands he seems tight.

I have AK off. Raise to $15 utg. Friend calls in MP1. V in MP2 makes it $50.

Folds back to hero. Thinks about alternatives and flats. MP1 flats.

Flop Ah 10x 5h. I do not have Kh.

I should bet but I don't. MP2 bets $70.

Friend says click this back and if he calls to be done with the hand.

Thoughts?

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What does c/r small acomplish that c/c evalute does not?

Also, why call 3b OOP?

+1



When you make it 15 from UTG and a tight guy just blasts it to 50$ i think we really should consider if we just should fold right there and not put anymore money in.


I really dont see how we will make much money postflop by just flatting the 3 bet OOP and often just get to see 3 cards instead of all 5.

C/c doesn't clearly define his range as much according to her. He will bet KK hoping to get looked up with QQ for one street. Also if I check call what do I do on the turn?

I am not in the habit of folding AK to a 3 bet. Against a lot of players I would 4 bet. Against this player I did consider folding as I felt like there wasn't a lpt of money to be made post flop.

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Against a tight raiser who'll we'll later see limp AKs, I'm never 3betting JJ. Let's see a flop in position, noting that if it goes multiway he'll probably play it pretty straightforwardly and we'll know exactly where we are on most flops.

I also 3/4 PSB flop when checked to. His call is concerning, but I guess he could have overs + flush draw.

Gross turn card as now one of the few overpairs we're ahead of just got there. But I probably bet the turn as the last money I put into the pot, say like $90.

GnotexactlylovinglifethoughG

I know I sound like a broken record on this, but what are our chances at narrowing the field with a UTG raise here? Looks like it was heading towards zero, so I'd limp/evaluate with these stacks.

I would fold to the reraise. How many 3bets have you seen from "pretty tight" guys that ain't exactly what you think they are? And if he has QQ-, we make very little money from him postflop on A/K boards, especially OOP, and yet we're owned if we're no good on an A/K board.

As played, I'm not sure why we would donk as that will just mostly get folds from KK-; we want him to check back and then get at least one street of value from hands where he is now thinking "are you betting cuz I weakly checked back the flop?".

Knowing the results might muddy my thinking at this point, but there is no point in clicking it back, imo. If we call here, he's probably going to play his hand pretty honestly on the turn (he's putting us on an A), and basically the only worse hand that might bet us off is AQ (and seriously, does he ever really have AQ?).

GcluelessNLnoobG

You think KK is double barrelling an A high flop hoping to get a second call out of QQ? (wouldn't getting a second street out of QQ, which is drawing to 2 outs, be much better done by checking the turn?)

If he does double barrel an A high flop with KK it's probably more to protect against the flush draw / gutshot, but even then most players are probably MUBsy enough to conclude that this doesn't warrant putting in dead money against Ax.

Gthishappensapproximatelynever,imoG

In addition to what everyone else has said, there's one other problem with this idea. If you both have the same hand, he has no reason not to play his AK like the nuts, which means he's going to push you off a chop.

In all honesty, there is no reasonable way you can expect to get away when you flop an ace here. The time to get away, if ever, was preflop.

I think this can be solved easily by referring back to fundamental reasons for betting.

When we C/R flop can we get value from worse? My guess is probably not.

And the notion that we could get a hand to fold incorrectly is probably insane.

C/R to define someone's range is another way to say "I'm betting to see where I'm at!'

Furthermore, I'm not sure we need to define a tight guys 3b an utg 5x open and then bet Axx flop 3way much.

Two limps, I raise in SB with AK in SB to ~$11, BB calls (definitely a player on the looser side) as well as BTN. BTN is definitely a more fun player.

Flop ($35): QJ9
I check. Against two calling ranges at 1/2, it doesn't seem like the best spot to cbet bluff. Sure, I have a gutshot and backdoor equity and overcards. But trying to get a player to fold a hand here still seems a bit like suicide to me. Everyone checks.

Turn ($35): Q
I check again. In hindsight, this should be a bet. I don't believe anyone has much of anything and a bet should take it down. BB surely would have bet if they had anything, and so would BTN. So this was a mistake. BB bets $13, BTN folds and I call.

River ($61): 3
I bet $25. The flush is obvious. I was kind of begging for a call instead of a check back from a J or even a naked Q. BB raises to $60.

So I've been raised or check raised twice this week in fairly similar situations. In my short time of playing live, river raises or check raises have been ingrained into my head as pure nuttish hands. Is folding here a mistake? Basically, are players ever raising naked Q's or worse flushes on a river where the obvious draw gets there? Don't look at the spoiler.

He could have worse value hands. Straight. Lower flushes. Trips. Pot is small. I think he could raise here with worse. I'm calling but not 3-betting river.

Say NH sir if you lose and make a note.

How deep are the effective stacks, ohsnapz?

I think in general the answer is no, but when it's a backdoor draw, people tend to skate over it.

I think maybe you could make a case that a smaller flush should be a fold, but I'd call with the ace-high flush.

Also, your options on the turn are not just check/call or bet. You can also check/raise.

Why not just 4bet/fold AKo? Calling a 3bet OOP and playing fit or fold seems like a losing strategy.

The math says we need to be good here about 1 out of 5 times. Folding would not be good.

Stacks are about 300 effective. We do have history in which he just flatter my big river bet with a weak boat and lost to my straight flush.

This is an interesting line that I didn't really think of. I guess if I had QQ or JJ I might play it this way. Maybe even a weak queen. Definitely a line I'll have to keep in mind, thanks!

I know the math says it's a call, I knew it at the table. I've seen maybe a handful of river raises in my short time playing live and I've never seen a bluff or a mediocre hand, which made me think fairly hard about this.

Generally I agree with you, river raises on paired boards at 1/2 NL are virtually always going to be full houses. I don't think you'll lose very much money in the long haul if you just stick to that as a hard and fast rule.

Here though, it's so cheap, and you've done everything a person could do to under-rep his hand and let V believe his Q is good. Losing less than $100 in a FH over A-flush situation is not exactly a disaster.

Definitely raise more pre-flop. I'm not sure about the flop play. With only BB and BTN in the hand, I would probably try to make play on the flop, but checking isn't awful.

When the flop checks through, you absolutely must lead this turn.

What would your sizing be? $105? $125? $140?

4betting to get value out of what? Much better to just call with AK to keep his dominated hands in (Also would be criminal to 4/bet fold when villain could 5bet with AK or QQ).

Normally would fold AK when a tight player 3bets an UTG raise but he sized it so small and there is a lot of money in the middle so calling is fine. Leading flop would be bad as would raising. Just call and evaluate turn.

I'd be very aware of villain's bet sizing as well. If a tight player starts shoveling in chips post flop it's likely he has more than just top pair. Like in this hand (table talk can help as well):

1/2 NL

Been at the table about 1-1.5 hours, fairly straightforward table. MAWG I've owned several times hitting hands he's paid off opens for 7 MP1 (UTG3ish-V1; ~$250). Only stays in a hand if he thinks he's good, often incorrectly.

V2, opens very tight, hasn't played many hands, 30ish hispanic/middle eastern guy, ~300 raises to 25.

HJ, decent thinking 30ish WG, tag maybe nit, calls.

Hero OTB, ~450, 8c8h, thinks, asks to see V2 stack, calls. Marginal call, but pretty sure V2 will pay off if I hit, even though I'm pretty sure he's scared money.

V1 calls, closing action. Pot $105.

Flop 6c7d9c.

V1 check
V2 70
V3 (HJ) folds

H?