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Live $5/$10 NL: Picking the Perfect 4-Bet Size

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10-15-2014 , 08:38 PM

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

$1000 eff. My image young TAG grinder, the other V is same and I consider him to be in the top 20% of grinders. We've played a lot in the past and he respects my game.

I open to $40 in MP1 with KK, MP2 loose passive fish calls, V in CO makes it $160, folds to me.

What's the best 4-bet size and why?

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10-15-2014 , 08:46 PM

DUCYdonk

adept

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 764

Can you give us more information?

1) What are you trying to accomplish with a 4bet, both relative to MP2 and V.
2) Do you have an approximate cold 3! range for V?

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10-15-2014 , 08:49 PM

Lapidator

LLSNL Frequent Flyer

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 13,762

Is V capable of 3b/f?

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10-15-2014 , 08:53 PM

venice10

Referee

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 25,974

What is the villain's 3 bet range? What is his 4bet calling range? Does it vary by bet size and by how much?

Answer these and you'll have your answer.

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10-15-2014 , 09:26 PM

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olaff

$1000 eff. My image young TAG grinder

what is your image at this particular table? are you winning or losing? Are you showing down good hands or are you getting caught bluffing a lot? Are you tighter than normal today or are you a little looser than usual? More aggo today? nittyer?

The best 4bet size could be clicking it back to around 295 or it could be a little higher, based on a lot of additional information, most importantly your image.

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10-15-2014 , 09:55 PM

ilike23bet

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 249

I know your question is best 4 bet size which I think is to make it like 340-375. Am I wrong in saying maybe the best line is to flat and c/r any non a high flops? I think if we 4 bet only 100bb eff we kind of turn our hand face up and he folds pretty much everything.

If we flat and fish calls as well we have $500 or so dead in there and can c/r gii or just donk out $200 or so and see if they spazz. Main intention is to keep 3 bettors bluff range in there which means he will likely c bet. Or if he has 1010-QQ kinda hands on safe flops he prob stacks off anyway to c/r. Just my 2 cents

Last edited by ilike23bet; 10-15-2014 at 09:56 PM. Reason: wrong word choice

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10-15-2014 , 10:05 PM

CRAIerrday

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 424

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilike23bet

Good post, I was thinking along the same lines.

Edit: I like calling if you never 4bet light. If you 4bet often then I say raise the same amount as you would with your weaker range.

Last edited by CRAIerrday; 10-15-2014 at 10:11 PM.

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10-15-2014 , 10:06 PM

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilike23bet

Hi Olaff,

the problem here is you are out of position, and it would suck to be in a pot 3 ways with KK first to act when there is an ace on the flop. Not that it should stop you but it would be easer if you were heads up to narrow his range more if he calls. We are not giving up just because there is an ace.

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10-15-2014 , 10:22 PM

ilike23bet

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 249

I'm not smart why did you put hi Olaf? As far as hand goes is your only arguement if an ace flops? I agree that would suck multiway oop but they obv don't flop that often. If board comes very wet I think donking works and if dry/ semi dry check raising is best. Should of included that in first post, also I know other villain is fish but doesn't mean he's calling 120 more

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10-15-2014 , 10:36 PM

#10

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilike23bet

Olaff you mentioned an ace on the flop slowing you down... if board is dry why would you check raise and fold out his air and all the hands we beat?

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10-15-2014 , 10:39 PM

#11

jsmo0th10

adept

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 709

Bout 3fiddy

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10-15-2014 , 10:45 PM

#12

ilike23bet

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 249

If it goes 3 ways we have 500 dead in there and 840 effective. If he c bets which he mostikely will let's call it 240 which is small but makes math easy.

Puts 740 in middle now it's on us we c/r all in puts 1580 in the middle and he only as to call 600 more. And that's if he cbets small Chances are if he has a decent piece he stacks off no? Again just my two cents I just think all this makes us more money than 4 betting and watching him snap fold

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10-16-2014 , 01:38 AM

#13

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

This is the perfect example of how exploitable live can be. If his range is tight (AK+, QQ+ or tighter) the optimal play is to click it back to $280 and fold to a 5bet. You lose the absolute min against AA (which is a big portion of a tight players range) and keep in worse hands. He can't set mine profitably and it's easy to get away from Axx flops.

If his range is wider, just flat pre and CR non A non Q non K flops

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10-16-2014 , 02:55 AM

#14

SunChips

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 1,442

Quote:

Originally Posted by slimshady1999

I'm not a fan of clickback OOP at this depth. He can flat his entire range profitably (and he def could flat AA). Only 120 for him to win 480. Around 4:1 direct, plus another 720 behind of implieds AND better implieds from playing an SPR 2 pot in position.

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10-16-2014 , 07:26 AM

#15

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapidator

Is V capable of 3b/f?

Absolutely.

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10-16-2014 , 07:29 AM

#16

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRAIerrday

Good post, I was thinking along the same lines.

Edit: I like calling if you never 4bet light. If you 4bet often then I say raise the same amount as you would with your weaker range.

I 4b light once.. ever.

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10-16-2014 , 09:44 AM

#17

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,067

I don't like 4bet/folding, if we click it back/fold we would fold about 30% of our stack with the second best starting hand. I would do this if I was a little deeper and the villain was a rec/nit/passive player who will never 5bet with anything less than aces but not to a guy who will try to outsqueeze us if we 4bet.

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10-16-2014 , 01:07 PM

#18

ilike23bet

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 249

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

Exact reason why I think flatting is best. 4 bet only forces better hand to continue, flatting keeps all air/dominated hands in.

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10-16-2014 , 01:13 PM

#19

love24blght

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 178

i would like 2 c-call here for 2 reasons
1. to leave fish in pot
2nd.if vilan is capable of 3b folding than our hand is prety much face up.
i have no problem ofc-r most of the flops

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10-16-2014 , 01:13 PM

#20

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilike23bet

Exact reason why I think flatting is best. 4 bet only forces better hand to continue, flatting keeps all air/dominated hands in.

let me clear this up a little. I do not like 4bet/folding that much out of my stack, so once I 4bet, I am getting it in if he 5bets.

Spoiler:

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10-16-2014 , 02:24 PM

#21

ilike23bet

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 249

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

let me clear this up a little. I do not like 4bet/folding that much out of my stack, so once I 4bet, I am getting it in if he 5bets.

Spoiler:

LOL I legit laughed at spoiler well played.

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10-16-2014 , 02:29 PM

#22

AintNoLimit

Coach live/online NLHE

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 6,399

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUCYdonk

Can you give us more information?

1) What are you trying to accomplish with a 4bet, both relative to MP2 and V.
2) Do you have an approximate cold 3! range for V?

We need your best guess here even if you are not sure.

Quote

10-16-2014 , 02:31 PM

#23

AintNoLimit

Coach live/online NLHE

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 6,399

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olaff

I 4b light once.. ever.

If you never ever 4 bet light and have zero dynamic vs this player then....

A. Your 4 bet range is far too narrow vs wide 3 bettors.

B. You would CALL which would be standard since your 4 bet range is too narrow.

C. Optimal could be to look at V like you dont believe him and 4 bet him to $395 (between clickitback and minraise sizing) (Most even good players will make the mistake of calling here)

C. is optimal IMO vs this V so far as I know of him.

Last edited by AintNoLimit; 10-16-2014 at 02:38 PM.

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10-16-2014 , 02:49 PM

#24

ilike23bet

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 249

Swear I'm not trying to kick a dead horse but is flatting that bad? Deeper I 4bet all day but 100bbs effective I feel like no one is 4 betting worse than kk and we get no value.

Quote

10-16-2014 , 02:58 PM

#25

gotwoot

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 530

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilike23bet

Swear I'm not trying to kick a dead horse but is flatting that bad? Deeper I 4bet all day but 100bbs effective I feel like no one is 4 betting worse than kk and we get no value.

I don't mind flatting here at all.

4! is essentially putting up a sign that we have KK+ and get no value. If we have never 4! light before, villain doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out. If we flat however, he can include AK in our range, and we might make a little more once we c/jam to his expected c-bet.

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