Table: $1/$2, max $200 buyin, 10 handed. 2 spewtards who stack of ludicrously light and 7 other nits. its very early in the morning and most players are tired and not wanting to exert too much thought, and accept the maniacs' donations.

Villain: standard $1/$2 reg, not a 'good' player by online standard, but is decent enough to make good laydowns and 'hero' calls. has played a few big pots with hero throughout the evening, having lost about $400 to me over the night. One hand that is somewhat significant was when I cold-called a 3-bet in the BB with AQs, flopped a broadway against villain and one other player and got it in 3ways against AK and villain's set of QQ's, my hand held.

Hand: Hero starts with $800ish, villain has me slightly covered. 2 limpers, Hero in MP1 with KK, bets $10, folded to villain in SB who 3-bets to $70 (huge 3-bet), folded to Hero who 4-bets to $200 to induce a shove. Villain calls.

flop: AA5 (pot: $402)

villain shoves.

What level thinker is the villian?

There has to be more info. (history/dynamics/hero's image/V's image, etc) to make this a call or fold.

Range, IMO, is KK,QdQh,QdQs,QhQs,AKs,AKo

.395*1000 = 395
.0602*200 = 12
.605*600 = -363
Total EV = positive

Wow pretty sick hand. Can't say I've ever seen someone make a $600 bet in a 1/2 game. If this range is right we should call...But this range might be too optimistic. Villain might not ever do this with QQ, or maybe we should discount it more. If I take out just one QQ combo from that range, then it turns to minus total EV.

hard to provide as i have very little history with villain.

anyone agree with assigning villain's range here as: JJ+, AK+? do we add random SCs, possibly widening to 99+, and AJs+?

Then I can't tell what is the best line...I don't know...hopefully someone else can...
It is a call against these ranges:

Board: AdAh5c
Equity Win Tie
MP1 64.02% 61.14% 2.88% { KdKh }
SB 35.98% 33.10% 2.88% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }



Board: AdAh5c
Equity Win Tie
MP1 67.19% 65.61% 1.58% { KdKh }
SB 32.81% 31.24% 1.58% { 99+, AJs+, AKo }

A spot like this is always the toughest for me. If I view him as an "average" 1/2 player, one who has lost 2BI to me and might just be over anxious, I call. I think an avg 1/2 player checks his ace to the 4 bettor, I dont see why he wouldn't.

fold. 1/2 players like this are incapable of shoving here without an A.

But does your avg 1/2 player here donk shove what is basically the nuts? (assuming a standard 3bet range of AK mayybe AQ suited) Seems to me he would get trappy, heck, I probably would... most times the 4 bettor is continuing in this spot.

The more I think about it, I feel like, based on the donk shove, we actually need a specific read to fold here. The board is dry as a bone... I just dont see it.

In order to jam with an ace here, i feel like he not only has to be a thinking player, he has to read you as one.

i don't know if i 4 bet to induce here 400 bbs deep. i'd probably fold to a shove. thoughts?

Call. If he has the ace then good for him. To me, if I had stacked off 2 buy ins to you already and flopped the effective nuts on that board. It's almost an automatic check, espicially at a 1/2 game and being late in the session. Seems like he could have a hand like 1010 or JJ and thinks he could get you off a better hand or maybe even have the best hand. Depends on his level of thinking

300 BB eff shove.... in 1/2 is a fold IMO. I think you are up against AK almost always. Think about the big picture in these games. Your skill alone is enough to have a huge edge in the games. HERO calling 300 BB's in a 4 bet pot pre is not a call you need to make in 1/2.

I'm having conflicting thoughts here.

First what range are you putting him on when he 3-bets? Some people are saying as wide as AJs and 99+, but I think that would be really rare at 1/2, so against an unknown opponent, it is incorrect to give credit for 3-betting this widely.

I think a much more reasonable 3-betting range is QQ+ and AK. I think specifically AK is pretty likely considering the size of the 3-bet, because in my experience 1/2 players that "know they're supposed" to 3-bet AK want to try to blow you off your hand pre since they usually don't know exactly how to play the times they miss the flop.

We are super deep and I don't think a lot of 1/2 players are getting 400 bbs in with QQ pre-flop, so I really like flatting pre since we have position, and we are probably just deep enough to set-mine against AA specifically pretty easily since we always get away from an a-high flop when he shows interest in getting money in and on most k-high flops we have the nuts. I would flat, call at least two bets on non-ace boards, bet when checked to on non-ace boards, and refuse to stack off unless I hit a set or maybe sometimes when he checks all 3 streets.

As played I am super confused by his flop shove. Whatever he has at this point in the hand, we can be pretty sure he's NOT a typical 1/2 player since they would check trip aces and they are super unlikely to bluff. I have no clue what to do. Sorry! But actually leaning toward folding, since deciding to shove trips to SEEM like a bluff seems more likely to me than trying a big bluff.

Also for all you people assigning ranges to do equity calcs, don't forget about the one combo of AA that he could very possibly have. Would be weird for him to flat pre, but not totally impossible.

Way more pre the firs time with two limpers this deep. 4bet way smaller too.

Fold flop, if he's making $600 bluffs good for him. We have to win this a very high % to call and I don't know that we are. look to avoid wawb spots for 1.6k at 1/2.

if he's bluffing, good for him. pick a better spot.

this

I keep wanting to put villain on JJ because of the way so many live players like to overbet JJ because "it's the only way to win with 'em."

I think this situation is really read dependent and if there isn't a clear read to go with, just fold and pick a better spot.

snap call

No one in their right mind donk-shoves here with an ace.

I was thinking the same. I don't see them shoving anything but aa pre unless they are the super incredible gambly type of villain

You made your decision here about how the rest of the hand was to be played. The more important question is what were you trying to accomplish with a 4 bet. At a table where everyone is just hanging out, a 4bet says, "I've got aces, maybe kings and once in a while AK." You're going to get called by aces and maybe queens. My read on you would be that if you're loose enough to call a 3bet with AQ, you're probably loose enough to call the shove here thinking I'm bluffing.

at the time i felt this was a snap-call, as no-one is donk-shoving with an A-X here. but it also seems abit unlikely that he is shoving TT-QQ here, as i would expect him to call down maybe two streets with those hands.

what I really have no idea about is, is his 4-bet flatting range preflop

PingPong has it right here. There's almost no way a random live 1/2 NL player is doing this without the Ace when he's first to act on the flop. HE has to think there's at least a reasonable possibility that YOU have an Ace, so it would be extremely risky to shove without one himself. Also, this bet size is well beyond the threshhold of what would be considered a "serious" 1/2 NL bet. People aren't fooling around with any-two-suited-trash anymore when they stick in $600 on one street in 1/2.

Seems like it would be a pretty viable strategy if it's obvious that there are people out there such as yourself who can't wait to call with KK or QQ.

Given my 1/2 experiences most 1/2 Vs are not 3! and calling a 4! with anything less then QQ and they are bad enough to almost always call with AK (gotta luv TV).
"IF"" that is his pf range then its a coin flip to your KK. i would actually weigh AK heavier then QQ in calling a 4!. Once he donks this flop I feel like AK is a significant part of his range. Since so many 1/2 players (wrongly) think 3 and 4! are AK / AQs (he saw you 3! with AQ which makes his read proper) he probably puts you on an A as well.
As hard as it appears, I would find a fold in this spot.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

11,880 games 0.005 secs 2,376,000 games/sec

Board: Ah Ad 5c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.101% 45.86% 04.24% 5448 504.00 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 49.899% 45.66% 04.24% 5424 504.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

we have so many blockers to AK though...

This is a call, if he woke up with AA.....oh well FYL.