I know it's boring when you fold pre in a live game, but I usually just muck in spots like this. We have the button but still people to act behind, we are offsuit, and we don't really need to own souls postflop in a 2/5 game - we just need to make hands. 67o isn't great for making the nuts in multi-way pots.

I could be persuaded otherwise, but this is my feeling.

Board: 7c 6c 3s 6s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 73.864% 73.86% 00.00% 520 0.00 { 76o }
Hand 1: 26.136% 26.14% 00.00% 184 0.00 { 77-66, 33 }


yeah, you're not folding.

also pf is a fold imo.

What a pointless thread, you have a full house and are beat by one hand just call and go to BBV if you lose. BTW "good" villain is stone ******ed for overbet shoving 2 BIs with 77 if that's what he has. lmao

fold pre , snap call turn , ranges are not relevant here , most likely 33, overpairs, or the straight ,

hahahha i wish i could be lucky like you, oh pelase oh please my next 200BB POT BE THIS EASY AT 3/5

i sure hope u called.

what'd he have 33? A4cc?

I think this is a pretty terrible spot to call pre-flop. I would either raise and hope to take it down or be able to win a pot heads up on the flop, or more often just fold. On the flop I don't mind the flat call, but you should never fold that turn. He's got a straight or an over pair or a worse boat way way more often then hes got 77...

I really can't believe that having 40:1 IO on the button that anyone is folding 76o. Damn, I'm the forum nit and that's way too nitty for me. Effective stacks are 200bb!

Villians action is consistent with TT-AA, 89c, A5c-A4c, 45, 33, 66, 77, 76, 63 just because he has limped before doesnt mean he is always limping them. You haven´t really given any info as to his limping range other than big hands. Is he raising a lot of hands too? If I am squeezing a player its usually because they are an aggro donkey or they are in an iso-raising spot. And that I feel I can get them to fold a large percentage of their hands.
I like the flat call on the flop as it keeps your range wide and I´m not considering folding either with top two here, of course I would call the turn shove as well. His turn shove makes me think he has a draw here more often than the full or an overpair.

You're obviously not afraid of him having you beat at this point with the second nuts... so why are we so concerned with what he has? You obviously call anything he puts out there..

You mentioned he limped with big PP, but there were a couple limpers before him, and he may have elected to raise this time with AA or KK... the pots already big on the flop and I doubt he wants to lose it, he instantly raises the small bet to 150 to prevent draws. When the other guy reshoves he probably really wants to do his best at this point to prevent draws, so he's gonna trust his AA is good and shove all in.... as your 150 call could mean a lot of things, as it would be hard for you to fold there with JJ or QQ or even 10 10. And even though those are hands he would want to extract from you, he'd probably rather not put you on a certain hand and assume your drawing to some big flush, so he pushes. He'll probably take his lumps if you hit your set.

So yeah, I think he has AA maybe KK. But whatever you clearly won unless he spiked an A or K on the river or somethign which is possible.

Not enamored with the call pre, but there was enough in there that I would come along for $25 in that much of a multi-way pot. If there was only going to be one or two other runners, I get the hell out...but that wasn't the case here.

As played, I get it all in before villian even finishes uttering all-in...if he turns over the one hand that has me beat there, so be it.

This one is not even remotely close...

From the way you think about your action and your villains, I can tell you are a good player.

But I don't understand what we can learn from this hand?

There certainly weren't any hard decisions.

(1) Squeezing is bad b/c this is live poker and as you said, "the players are loose and might not know that they are supposed to fold."

(2) Calling PF is marginal.

(3) I wouldn't shove OTF. It feels like one of these guys has us beat, and Villain seems overly eager to ship AI with an obvious straight OTB.

(4) Turn/River action is simple and uninteresting.

Completely disregarding the fact that you turn the 2nd nuts... even on the flop this is a snap call IMO if the dealer had allowed villian's all-in.

Yes, you are losing to a set or straight - but you are ahead of all the flush and straight draws and over-pairs villain could have, of which there are many more combos than 33, 66, or 77. He's not raising pre in that spot with 45. I'm putting one of them on an over pair and one on a monster draw - maybe both on big draws.

the people saying calling PF is marginal/bad are insane.

pretty standard call pre here in this specific spot.

i woulda raised/got it in on the flop.

as played, WTF GET IT IN! just a cooler that you lost.

This takes place in Seneca.
You can't show your hand in Seneca.

I say, "I have 76, I beat everything except 77"

I look at his face.

I get a super strong read ... He has 77, and only 77.

Do you trust your read and fold or call?

BBV.

OK, WE ARE ALL holding a vigil due to the horrible setup, but did you learn anything from the hand?

Like maybe calling pre is ok, but we do have to play well postflop or it could easily be -EV. (not in this case, but could be in other hands)

That even though villain thinks we are tight we can manipulate the situation by saying something like :" i usually dont do this, but this seems like a good enough time to me", where villain will forget about your tightness and put you on AQcc etc and shove any overpair or maybe pair+SD etc.

That once we flop top two, that we are looking to get money to center fast and not worrying about villains range really isnt the prime consideration now since we are not folding unless the board somehow goes to a 4 str, so we want the money in before it does that. (and prolly wouldnt fold then even actually, but thats worst case)

So were you REALLY trying to seek ranges which is of no real value? Or
as many do, just want to expose such a tragedy?

Normally you want to get it all in quickly with top two — [Rounders]Unless they are chewing on Oreo's. "Laying down a monster." [/Rounders]

But consider the huge action on the flop.

On the flop the action was: A tiny bet; a pot sized raise from the preflop better; a tight player call; the initial tiny better shoves all in; and an attempted over shove over betting the pot.

Top two shrinks a lot given that flop action.

It's very difficult for a post convey what I'm feeling live, (This was the reason for all the detail in my post.)

I felt the villain did not have big pocket pairs (he limps them preflop, and in this hand he raised), 54 or 33 in his range (He likes high cards).

This is why I concluded that he has 77 here more than 75% of the time.

Then on the turn the villain insta over bet shoves when the 6 pairs.

I watched the villain while the turn was dealt.

I got a strong feeling he was 100% sure his hand was the best.

But I didn't trust my gut. And I called.

I disobeyed my rule of, "Always trust your gut feeling!"

\
sorry but give villain AA and tell me he does no different. And he has way more AA than 777. This is results talking. What does he do with KK? What does he do with AKcc?

Hero starts throwing these away very often and its not going to be pretty in the overall scheme of things. Look at villains entire range and if you can say oh no, villain only does this with set and thats it.......then fold. But its absolutely not the case.

Your gut will lie to you when it doesnt want to lose over 200bb.

the as played isnt the point. Flatting flop is just crying bad. So i cant go farther than that. hero is looking already for reasons to fold and has only been a chump bet and nice raise from villain with huge made hand range. Nope

In the original post, Villain has shown he limps AA, and KK preflop from MP. Villain has shown he check calls AKcc to the river and shoves when he hits. Can we agree that the chance of Villain having AA/KK/AK here is less than 10%? Based on the above behavior, I think it unlikely that the villain will raise preflop with small pairs (33) or suited connectors (54). I'm guessing the villain has these hands here less than 35%, Less on the turn since he instashoved. The clueless player bet $25 and then shoved his stack in ($225), He could have 33, or 54. I've only seen 4 hands that the villain has shown down.
Yes, it's a tiny sample size.
But I haven't seen the villain vary his play. He limped 3 times from MP with AA, AA and KK.

So I don't think he's got more than one gear. (I should not have described the villain as "good" in the title, my bad.)

Can you explain to me how you knew he had exactly 77 and that it certainly was not possible for him to have 54 which makes WAY more sense? "Goodness I already have two sevens which leaves ONE, a SINGLE combo of pocket sevens, yet by golly there is still SIXTEEN combinations of 54."

Math aside, if you were confident he HAD the nuts, then he HAD 54. Why the hell can he not have 33 either? Being extremely results orientated imo. I couldn't even finish the rest of this post after reading "GOTTA TRUST MY GUT" when that's absolute crap. You knew he was strong, 77 is a possibility albiet the MOST unlikely one. So, given that 16 times he has 54 here, 6 combos of 33 and A SINGLE COMBO OF 77. If you ever fold here, please dear god quit poker. You seem like a reasonable player in all honesty though giving constructive criticism but this whole post is absolute crap. This is such a standard get it in spot. You know it. Whine posts are in BB.

[QUOTE=derick;21874539]In the original post, Villain has shown he limps AA, and KK preflop from MP. Villain has shown he check calls AKcc to the river and shoves when he hits. Can we agree that the chance of Villain having AA/KK/AK here is less than 10%? Based on the above behavior, I think it unlikely that the villain will raise preflop with small pairs (33) or suited connectors (54). I'm guessing the villain has these hands here less than 35%, Less on the turn since he instashoved. The clueless player bet $25 and then shoved his stack in ($225), He could have 33, or 54.



10% , ......no. The propensity for villain to play different after winning a ton is ever present, not to mention nobody i see follows lines 90% like that. Especially non standard lines.

If you played for 3 months with the guy and he hardly ever raised AA KK etc then i would begin to get onboard, but top two is pretty strong and you never know what villains will snap and play aggressively. This is a time that absolute strength is sort of taking over.

Very similar to folding bottom set. You have to be REALLY sure of handreading to do this because (and this is important) .....

Folding when best is a catastrophe (reciprocity is lopsided)
CAlling when behind is only a routine and mere loss (reciprocity even)
Even though the money gained and lost is the same each way.

I hope you can figure out what that means.

I was at the table for this hand IIRC. Have to fold here. This particular player would not do that w/ out 77. Played countless hours with him. FWIW I thought I was the only one that noticed his blue eyes.

villain had JJ right?

Welcome to the forum!!!

Very cool to have another player who was at that table!

Would you like to get together and compare notes some time?

Interesting that the only people on the forum who think this is a fold are the people at the table.

Can you add anything else about the villain or about the table?

Thank you very much.