Sorry what? ^

First off, why is the woman's range capped at KK? There's 3 combos of AA preflop. But also, you just listed ranges that we do terribly against. We're getting 4:1. In the best possible scenario against those ranges we're up against AK and AK. That gives us 30% equity. Technically enough to call. But in this case there are reverse implied odds when we hit an ace, and no implied odds when we hit a Q. Same thing if we're up against say, JJ and AK (25% equity).

(Technically our best equity scenario is being up against AQ and AQ, but again, hard to actualize our equity.)

And obviously it really only gets worse from there... Still not seeing much merit to calling OOP with a likely-dominated hand, 3ways. As for trying to flop a flush draw and then x/r all in? Well, we spike the nut flush draw only about 11% of the time... This isn't even close to enough to call pre, getting 4:1. With 100% implied odds (unrealistic), we're still not in great shape since the FD probably gives us somewhere between 35 and 40% equity after the flop.

the RIO pre flop is pretty intense and it never changed throughout.

fold everywhere

I would prob fold this pre bc i dont like being dominated....

But Atsai basically nails how I played this in my head while i was reading...

Man...if you had more behind this would be an awesome spot to jam

That's pretty interesting.

With other guy calling and her betting and us having an A, it's pretty much impossible we run into AA. They are both relatively capped and the best hand either of them usually has is AK. Occasionally she'll have TT.

Do you think after checking turn and river we can ever get credit for Tx though? If we are holding a ten we should be leading river.

Why would you overcall a flop bet in this spot with 88 or 99? It's pretty much impossible to rep these hands here.

Also hard to rep a T because you checked behind on turn. Though if the stacks were deeper you could possibly shove and get away with it.

Women in their mid-30s don't 3bet without QQ+. Even the good aggressive ones. They also don't c-bet the flop on an ace-high board without AK or AA.

Calling the 3-bet is -EV even though we're getting 12:1 implied odds on the fish. We're still out of position, we're still crushed by the lady's 3-bet range, and we have huge reverse implied odds against her. The chance to stack the fish isn't going to be worth it for all the times we miss the flop and have to c/f because she obviously has KK or the times we hit an ace and she c/f because she has KK.

It's interesting because our hand has implied odds against the fish and reverse implied odds against the 3bettor. If we call pre we better have a good read on the 3bettor's postflop tendencies and have a plan in place for each street so she doesn't realize her implied odds against us.

Poker is not dead

Great discussion. Thanks. The one thing that no one really discussed was the reason behind both players checking the turn. Could it be for pot control? In case one of us was slow playing a 10? Or weakness?

This is a leak for me in live poker: I play too fast conditioned from online play that I merely looked at it like this:

Woman makes what looks like a thin value bet on river and old guy snapped it up. What does AQ beat so I folded pretty quickly.

But if I had put a little thought into the significance of the turn check around, I think I probably should have led out on the river or at the very least check called. After I folded, the woman basically insta mucks (underpair I guess) and the old dude showed A4 off. Again I think the key street was the turn where everyone checked.

I did think about folding pre but rationalized the call when the old guy called too. And of course my cards were sooooooooooooted. Haha.

You should never fold this hand pre in this particular situation. I can't believe what I'm reading, there's some serious nittery going on in this thread. It's 8bb to call in a 3-way pot with at least 1 drooler that you have position on, you have a very strong drawing hand and you're playing 160bb deep. Don't fold for the love of god.

Guy who said fold pre should probably quit poker

Revisit hand history. Hero is in EP and oop on both villains.

yea you're right calling EP 3bets by middle aged women out of position is +ev

What do you think the 3bettor's range is??

I think AQo is a clear fold, but calling AQs pre can be okay given odds, stack sizes, and drooler. We just have to be very careful on a flop like this, by folding.

I like how you generalize that ALL women are super tight and can't possibly show up with less than QQ or AKs here because lolgirls and that she can't possibly continuation bet an Ace high board because girls don't bluff. Some if the biggest nutjob fish I've ever played with have been 40+ year old women. Making general blanket statements at the table based solely on the way someone looks is a horrible idea, everyone is different.

Another poster said earlier ITT that it's a fold pre because the woman's 3betting range is too tight, but then suggested that the river is also a fold because she has T's in her range?! What T's show up in a "super tight" 3betting range besides quads?

Yes, I read the HH wrong and we are indeed OOP. But you're calling $40 to see a pot of $200 preflop before rake, so I'm guessing $195? And we have AQhh which is an EXCELLENT drawing hand, especially when 160bb deep. The older guy cold calling is almost certainly a fish, and there's a decent chance the 3bettor is as well. This is a great spot.

Obv you shouldn't go nuts if you make a 1 pair hand, but you're playing poker ffs. See a flop and re-evaluate!

I know it's late now because OP already posted results (which should open eyes here to how ridiculous some of these posts are) but I would be calling the river as well. The flatter is always going to either raise the flop or bet the turn with a Ten, we have a blocker for Aces full, the turn is rarely being checked thru with AK, the flatter prob has AJ and worse in his calling range. Many reasons to call, or jam as some have suggested.

These are very basic concepts here, and I can't believe how many of you are immediately advocating a fold pre like it's the easiest thing ever. Completely ridiculous.

And with that, I'll be bidding this particular forum adieu.

How are we ever getting paid off unless we literally flop a flush? A "good drawing hand" must have good implied odds. This does not.

I fold. Based on the action and the read that she has only 3 bet once in the session I think she specifically has AK. I do not think AJ 3 bets pre and KK or QQ makes no since OTR.