Enter Bigskip’s world of underground poker and debauchery

I really struggled with whether or not I should write a well for my 5,000th post at 2+2. Compared to most other players, I am not particularly accomplished as a player, and my own personal poker goals are fairly modest. My main concern was that for a variety of reasons I rarely post in the strat threads anymore, and my contributions to 2+2 now seem to be mostly stories of my degenerate behavior and the usual nonsense that I seem to find myself involved in on a daily basis. However, I have learned a lot from 2+2, so in effort to return a little to our community, I have put together a few thoughts and observations from my own experiences. If you are so inclined, turn off your internet porn, pour yourself a nice adult beverage, and read along.

My poker story…
Like many players here, my love for poker grew from playing with my dad and uncles around the kitchen table. My father was an accomplished backroom poker player in the 50s and 60s, but a growing family and a farm over time limited how much he was able to play. I grew up watching the family card games, and it was a rite of passage for each of us kids to finally get a seat at the table. My favorite game through my teens was always 7 card stud, which also happened to be my father’s best game. I made my first “real” poker money playing limit stud in the Moose and VFW lodges of my hometown whenever I was on break from college. Unfortunately finding a game in my college town was impossible at that time, and I eventually drifted away from playing except on rare occasions.
After I completed my Master’s degree in 1996, I moved to Atlanta and started my professional career. I stayed away from poker due to a lack of opportunity, but like many, I watched “Rounders” and was intrigued by that “Texas Hold ‘em” game. I got my first experience playing Hold’em in 2000 while visiting Orlando for a conference. A few of the upper brass liked to play cards, so they hosted a nightly low stakes poker game in the hospitality room. There I met a gentleman from my agency who worked in Texas, who also happened to be a fairly serious poker player and had played yearly in the WSOP. The game those nights was dealer’s choice, and this guy always chose Hold’em…and proceeded to abuse the table relentlessly. After a brutal thrashing the first night, he played heads up with me and explained some mistakes I had been making throughout the evening. The next night I held my own, and by the last night I was hooked…and up nicely against the bosses.
From this point my story is like most – I played online a little, the Moneymaker boom hit, yada yada yada. My overall cash experience online is minimal compared to most as I preferred SnGs and tournaments for my online poker buzz. Live I preferred cash games, and I mostly played friendly low stakes home games from 2005-2009, with an occasional casino trip worked in when the opportunity presented itself. Over that time I was a small winner, and had mostly learned the game via playing, some online training sites, and lots of books. I eventually discovered 2+2 and found out exactly how little I really knew. I was quite intimidated by 2+2 initially, but when the LLSNL forum opened I gingerly stuck my toe in the water and became an active poster. Easily the most +EV poker move I have ever made, as I have been fortunate to interact and learn from so many quality contributors to this site. I don’t want to start naming names as I know I will miss someone, but in particular I appreciate the time that Venice10, APD, and Mpethybridge have put into moderating this forum and quite often protecting me from myself.
The majority of my poker playing now is done in various home and underground poker games. I currently play 1/3 and 2/5, usually with a rock ranging from $6-$15 in play, depending on the stakes and game location. I dabble in 5/5 when it is available, but what I play is determined mostly by what is running on any given night. Some nights a 1/3 game can play deeper and bigger than a 5/5 – it just depends on who shows and what mood they happen to be in that night. My underground games have been quite the adventure, and folks I have seen some sights! Topless hostesses? Check. WSOP Main Event winner showing up to a game? Check. Two foreign degenerate gamblers trading women for the night? Check check check!
As I have said on 2+2 many times, my games play a bit different than most, and playing so many different types of games in these settings has given me a bit of a different perspective than many here on table dynamics and how to present yourself at the table. My thoughts kind of go all over the place and cover a few topics, but hopefully you will find something useful or worthy of discussion.

BigSkip’s Random Poker Thoughts and Observations

1.) Understand Your Villains
When reading a HH on 2+2, one of the first things that jumps out at me is the lack of thought many posters give to their villain description. Often the descriptions are brief/vague, and are of no real value. I think most of us are aware of the general profiles we develop based on age/race/tendencies, but one factor I believe which is crucial but often missed is motivation – ie why is your villain playing? While not always easy to determine, a little observation can tell us a lot, and should help develop the range of a particular villain along with how they may be approaching a hand. A couple of obvious examples of rec fish:

a.) Gambler gonna gamble – You know the type. Having a few beers, enjoying the night, and there to get in big pots. The words “pot odds” will be coming out of his mouth more than any others, and if he is suited/connected or just frisky, he will be in there like swimwear on a hot summer day. For this player type, money is a secondary motivation, and his primary one is action. He will gladly lose $1,200 over time calling with 5-2o to win that one pot for $400, because the story of how he cracked KK with a garbage hand gives him more utility than the actual money won.

b.) Smartest man in the room – The type of guys who irritates those of us who really are the smartest people in the room. Often a guy who is successful in life outside the poker room, is well educated, and uses poker as a competitive outlet. This type of player will again be driven by ego more than money, as he wants to show that he can always make the correct decision. This kind of villain is capable of the big fold (don’t worry – he’ll show), but he will also grab a cape and player the hero quicker than anyone else at the table. This villain is usually easy to spot as he will speak with authority on any topic if given the chance.

c.) The local low stakes “pro” – and I use the term “pro” loosely here. This is the guy who dreams of the WSOP Final Table more than anyone else at the table. There is an overlap between this villain and the Smartest Man, with the difference being the lls pro considers his expertise to start and stop with poker. This type would tell you money is his motivation, but in reality he is motivated by the dream of leaving his hum-drum world behind and living the fantasy life of a High Stakes Poker Player. He in many ways will play a bit like the Smartest Man and will be trying to make the correct play at all times, but will often also be scared money due to the financial impact of losing and the effect that a losing night has on his dream.

d.) Social Butterfly – here for a good time and nothing more. This is a frequent villain at all LLSNL tables. This villain thrives on the social interaction of the game, and will try to keep themselves at the table and engaged more than anyone else (the gambler types being close behind). Of all the villains at the table, this can be often be one of our most profitable as losing won’t matter to him if he can get utility from the money he is spending. Usually fairly easy to identify due to his chatty nature and generally passive play as risk = higher chance of losing = leaving the table sooner than he wants.
Working off of those 4 very broad groups, we can use what we know about their motivation as a way to exploit them at the table. Tell b and c the right “story” throughout the hand, and you have the villains you have your best chance at bluffing. Take an unconventional line that they don’t often see, and you will find them making the hero call and thus they become your best targets for thin value. When A gets in the pot, he becomes our target for fat value and over bets as he will gladly pay you for the chance to ride his rush – don’t be afraid to give the junkie his fix. Our good buddy d will be one of our best cbet victims as he will often play more fit/fold than anyone else at the table, and when his passivity turns to aggression we will know exactly where we stand. (Note: an exception to the rule is if it is near the time he is leaving, as then the risk issue is lessened as his social interaction will be coming to a close soon anyway.)
Obviously what I have written here is quite broad and there are other categories and subcategories I use and modify with villains as I get more information. The important thing to remember is that why you are at the table is quite often not why your opponents are at the table, and that difference will affect their style of play and weaknesses.

2.) LLSNL Villains Think…No Really, They Do
One major disagreement I have with some conventional 2+2 wisdom is that our opponents at the lower levels are not “thinking” opponents. Now don’t get me wrong, I agree with level 0/1/2/3 thinking principle, and we should not level ourselves when playing against our level 0/1 opponents and give them credit for lines of thought they simply are not using. However, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t some form of thought process behind what they are doing, or that we should not think about why some villains do the things they do. The best part is that by listening and paying attention, they will often tell us exactly why they played hand a certain way, and we should be using this information to build our profile of that villain. Whether it is “I put you on X!”, “I had to see where I was at!”, “It was suited so I had pot odds!” or whatever logic they choose to use, our villains have their reasons for their actions. Listen, and listen well, and we can start finding patterns and understanding why our opponents are taking the lines that don’t make sense to us. If you play in a small player pool, you should be able to start accurately ranging many of your villains to a degree that you can make your decisions (particularly postflop) much, much easier. The three most important pieces of information for me that I have on all of my regulars: 1.) how they play a set on a wet board,, 2.) how they play TPTK vs TPGK, and 3.) how they play a big draw on the flop.

3.) Finding Your Villains Leaks
This issue ties in closely to what I said in 1 and 2, but I wanted to touch on it some more. The obvious leaks are fairly simple – calling too much, bet sizing poorly, not understanding board texture and so on. Things I watch for:

a.) Calling preflop raises with SCs and PPs without the correct implied odds – I also take note of post hand discussions to find out who is folding these hands based on the raise being above their calling threshold.

b.) Who fires 1 barrel and gives up on the flop

c.) Who is calling when they think they are beat (bonus points if I can figure out why?)
Those 3 common leaks can tell me a lot about any random player, and combined with what I know about their motivation for being at the table, I can use each one to my advantage over time. (Example: Smartest man in the room knows cbetting is something “the pros do”, but will often not follow through with the double barrel. Meanwhile the gambler can fire the 2nd barrel, but based on bet sizing I may be able to smell out bluffs vs value.)

4.) Plugging My Own Leaks – A Nightly Task
Over the course of a session, I constantly review how I am playing certain hands…and asking myself “Why?” If I don’t like the answer I am giving myself, I take a break and determine what the problem is, and whether or not I should continue to play.
Hands I ask myself to justify…

a.) Calls with SCs/PPs in position. Two questions: 1.) am I getting the right price, and 2.) do I have a viable backup plan for the hand.

b.) Trouble hands: how am I playing KQ/KJ/A-10/etc in position, and why?

c.) 3bets – have I made any outside of for pure value? Am I missing obvious spots for additional 3bets?

d.) How many hands have I played OOP? Have I limp/called at any point?

On any given night I may have perfectly sound reasons for making certain plays, but I track those areas in particular to keep my focus sharp and make sure I am not sliding into a passive C level game by default.

5.) Assorted Other Thoughts

a.) Don’t be “That” Guy. Who is That Guy? The one no other player wants at their table, not because he is crushing the game, but because he is miserable to be around. You don’t have to be a jokester – just be polite, and have good table decorum. Never berate the fish, treat the dealer like a fellow human being, and remember that a nice guy gets paid off with a smile (or at least a shrug), but a jack ass at the table may not get paid off at all.

b.) I play in games where having a relationship with the hosts and dealers is crucial to my bottom line. I make sure to bring small gifts for the hosts for birthdays/birth of new kids/whatever, and I will often toke the dealers extra on especially good nights. In return I get connections into other games, and often get a heads up about whether a game is good or not. If you play in a casino, I highly recommend showing appreciation where ever possible and when allowed to the room management and favorite dealers. For a few $$$ you can build a reputation as someone who the staff wants to see walk into the room, and that can be nothing but a positive for you.

c.) You can bluff at low stakes. Understand your image, your villain, and whether or not you are telling a convincing story. With that said, I have made more money from bluff catching than bluffing, AINEC. Why? I understand my image, and how certain villains perceive my play. Warning: as mentioned before, our villains think more than some of us realize, and they will learn fire =hot. If you put on the cape and play the hero with middle pair in big pots routinely, you should expect to run into fewer bluffs sooner rather than later. Narrow your villains range accordingly.

d.) Once you assign a range at the start of hand, avoid adding hands to that range to justify your decisions. However, I firmly believe that if you are up against a player you see routinely, you should be able to narrow his range, often significantly, as the hand progresses. Sometimes only 1-2 hands make sense later in the hand, and if those hands are in the initial range, I will weight them accordingly when making my decision.

I apologize for kind of rambling a bit, but hopefully someone will find something useful in all that mess.

Finally, I want to thank all of you who contribute regularly to the LLSNL forum. A special shout out goes to my Chat Thread brethren and The Situation – I love you all, and each of you is special in your own way.

This is the closest thing to a crash course for LLSNL I've seen.

Nice read.

Great post Skip--thanks. What is "a rock with $6 to $15 in play"?

Good read, I enjoyed it. Wish you the best in cards and life, BigSkip!

A rock is essentially a house straddle. It has a predetermined value (example: $6 in a 1/3 game) and is used to build pots (and therefore the rake) for the house. The rock can be an object (a die is often used) or an amount of chips bundled together (with tape, rubber bands, whatever) of the assigned value. Rules vary from house to house, but ours generally follow the Mississippi straddle rules which means the rock can be played anywhere but the blinds. The rock is always forced to be in play at some point - some games require you play it at the first opportunity after winning it, while others simply require you play it by your button.
Again this may vary, but in my games the rock only has value as a straddle or when you are all in - it cannot be bet any other time. It only has a cash value at cash out if the game breaks or if the rock is pulled from play (usually happens if a game goes to 5 handed or less).

well done

nh; wp. I play in a regular home game, and as I read your player profiles, one reg at the game jumped out as a prototype of each category.

The underground scene change a lot there? I was never really plugged into it here for security clearance reasons. Rake free home games are 100% legal in CO, unlike their raked brethren, so I stay in the clear. Obv, though, there is a lot of overlap in the player-pool and it seems to me that underground games are constantly dying, moving, stopping, starting, etc.

My main games have all moved (one in particular has been run out a few times lol) but overall the scene here is fairly steady. The biggest game killer tends to be Omaha - several spots have dried up after it became the 50% of their action as there just isn't enough money in that player pool to drive the action.
My primary player pool has a tremendous amount of overlap between locations and stakes, which is why putting together player profiles has become so important to my game. I also have observed players changing styles over time in an effort to adapt - often poorly but the effort is there.

Entertaining read Skip. Thanks for taking the time.

Subbing so I can easily find the thread next bathroom break

nice read Skippy! I think we need moar degeneracy and topless waitress stories

Nice work Skippy.

Ya Skippy!

I don't think I player profile enough. I find myself in too many situations where I take a "default" line that would work against the majority of the players, but if I thought about things more, I would probably be better off tweaking it against the particular player I happen to be in the pot with.

+1 to more degen / topless waitress / wife swapping stories

I've never played a real home game (not counting games with family). You ever feel uneasy / unsafe / yikes, is this a bad part of town and I've got 2K in my pocket?

Have you ever actually lived in a van down by the river?

Ggogogo!G

Boring...if I want to read strategy posts, I'll just search for ILCD.

super subbed

pictures of swords?
do you ever play stud anymore?
ever been at a game while it's been robbed or raided? if so, what happened-did the swords come in handy?

How awesome was it hanging out with Chris Moneymaker alone in you car, drunk, and late at night?

I have a good one I haven't shared I will post later tonight.

Not really. My usual locations are pretty secure. Anytime game where I would feel uncomfortable stepping out of the building usually has security that will walk me to my car if needed (host won't even ask - just sends them out with you if you cash out big).

I am more concerned about getting pulled over with $3k in my pocket and a cop getting nosy.


Lived? No.
Hid out until the heat died down? Yes.

I will take pics of swords and post later this week.

Online for play money.

Nope. None of the games I play in have any issues. I have heard some good stories, and one game was (I felt) heading towards a robbery right before it closed. A lot of weird incidents with someone claiming to be security knocking on the door, players felt they were watched going into the building one night, and a few other odd situations. Word got out about the a couple of incidents and the player pool immediately dried up.

I did miss the police appearing at two of my games in the same week due to incidents players had in the parking lot/garage.

Technically it was early in the morning (5 am) and I was sober. Still cool though. We cuddled.

Thread really is going no where. Needs more hookers and blow. You're going to have to give us a bunch of degen/debauchery stories if you want this thing to hit well status.

You ask...I give. At my game right now but will start adding some of my funnier ones

And I was trying to give helpful info to the n00bs! I need love for that!

What app is that? Looks ghey.

Obvious level is obvious.