9 handed 3,850 effective.

Hero has a tight image.

V1 is LAG, independently wealthy, not scared money, 3bets very light, peels way too wide.

V2 is the maniac described here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...eflop-1823082/

Both cover hero, as do other villains preflop.

Hero UTG raises to 65 with Ac5c. V1 in UTG+1 raises to 175. V2 calls, which probably brings in some of the other cold callers pre. Lawyer meh reg in CO cold calls, good reg/semi pro in first blind cold calls, new player described by V2 as a pro waiting for a bigger private game calls. Hero 4bets to $1,100.

V1 calls, V2 calls, rest fold.

Flop $3,840: Td4h2d

$2,750 behind. Other players are somewhere between 5-10k effective. Hero?

i get we want to be balanced but how often do you think v1 and v2 actually fold pre

Frankly, probably not as much as they should. Especially V1, and V2 is more likely to peel when V1 peels. That was one of my thoughts after the hand. Should I just call the 3bet knowing this? And how can I adjust my 4 bet range given this? All KK+ and AK for sure. More QQ, JJ? AQs? AQo? What about AJs?

the way you make v2 sound, this literally never gets through pre and even if 1 3bs light hes still going to continue really often given positions imo and thats without even considering the read that he peels way too much. i mean personally id just 4b linearly for value but how light that can go is going to be a function of v1. if you want to 4b aqo or w/e as your "bluff" i think thats better than this because you should dominate alot more of their flats that in a normal dynamic but it just feels like given positions and seat dynamics you're going to have to play incredibly tight here even when it comes to rfi'ing.

flop spot now really sucks tbh. ingame id put it in but i think that has the potential to go really poorly. i dont think check is really that great since we have ok equity vs anything except AT / NFD and im a bit worried with v2 being ip he jams ATC if it gets checked to him and i dont see much merit to betting small since its not really clear what to do vs jam or if either one calls.

3bet linear not polar in this group.

I don't know whether shove or x/f is better. Problem is you probably have 0 fold equity vs. any hand.

All in. And don’t 4b the guys that never fold with A5.

I agree with others go linear in a loose game like this one. I would just call pre. I don’t think 4betting is that bad however.

On this flop it’s really hard getting it thru vs 2 strong ranges. We can start considering a jam when the flop brings a club.

If you're going to 3! and 4! suited wheel aces, best to be in position and vs less opponents who are likely to call. It shouldn't be automatic and I would have preferred the flat here knowing you're getting a great price to hit huge vs the field almost like set mining.

The situation you describe is a leak as there were 4 freaking opponents cold-calling a three bet in this hand (which includes maniac V2 who is going to range the whole deck) and V1 who as you describe is going to station more often than not.
By your own analysis you know your 4! isn't likely to get through pre, so I believe you leveled yourself with the ol "I gotta balance my 4-bet range" in this game in which it doesn't apply.

AP though, you have one move and that's all in. I'm removing sets of 2's and 4's and removing pocket Kings and Aces. You're flipping vs KdQd, Qd-Jd and I think we can get all middle pairs to fold.

I'm folding this pre first to act in this game and lineup.

Between the two of them, there’s plenty of JJ/QQ combos that are not folding. I think it’s fine to give up

Completely disagree. From V descriptions (i.e. V1 3! light, V2 maniac), it's way more likely they don't contain these hands than do. And the times we do see them, we'll be a dog but drawing live.

We made our bed and we have to sleep in it. If we check and either V bets cause they perceive weakness holding who knows what, it's way worse on HERO.

It's fine as played, even given that people are not overfolding and you should get called down by large aces and pairs and have 25% equity with some dead money against them some percentage of the time here versus these players. A5ss has equity value 3 ways with dead money and some overfolding by opponents with your betting initiative and their position

You will also fold out some broadway overcards and gutters some of the time and deny equity versus players some of the time as played, as well as make flop values in pairs and flush draws some of the time as played.

I think being prepared with a significant BR and being Ok with losing this hand to 66, large aces etc is a better mindset and then re-loading and trying for linear value if you're getting called down light by these players over and over or other high equity spots once the game gets splashy and going. You create the game cultures you get to play in and 4bing as a merge here isn't terrible. You'll win some you'll lose some, onto the next splashy value opportunity after that.

I'm jamming but think pre-flop is played poorly given presence of maniac.

A-wheel hands generate a lot of their profits from fold equity.

Prefer flatting the 3! to 4! And maybe just open fold if game is extra wild/splashy.

Also if Hero does 4! would want to consider smaller sizings in 700-900 range

As noted, just flat the preflop 3bet in a loose call happy game.

AP x/fold not an option given stack depth and your hands equity vs a betting range.

Given you have to call a bet, I would prefer to jam flop. You should have >30% equity when called (you are flipping versus part of Vs range like flush draws and are ~30% versus most 1-pair hands), and you do benefit from protection versus hands like KQ/KJ/etc.

Result:

Nice play

Wild that V2 folded a ten. He should call there with any pair.

Just goes to show, people can make unanticipated mistakes when put to a decision with an aggressive action. If we check, we let V2 play perfectly and jam his ten and put us in an uncomfortable spot.

Thanks, I appreciate this. It is kind of my thinking as well, but better articulated.

Bro this is just pure leak city. 2.5x utg with A5s, then 4bet with 0 FE, what are you even doing? Coupled with the linked hand folding basically TPTK to a maniac.

VS this lineup either make it 5x pre or just limp, or even open fold UTG.

OTF yer done, x/f, game over, you lose. Or just jam and do a poker rain dance and hope that you get it through with a little equity to suckout since this flop is going to hit a large part of anyone's range given the circumstances.

might be the best hand ever. this confirms to me though that 4b pre is much worse than call

I am going to break down some of my thought process a little bit. I know small raise size is unorthodox and widely regarded as bad. I am not saying it is better. But I am going to explain why I like it and why it works for me. Everyone should do what works best for them and don't feel like you need to copy anyone else.

I respect the idea of using a larger RFI size and I know it works for a lot of people. It is most clear that it is nice to have a big RFI size in hands where we have a premium and/or hit a huge hand and don't manage to get stacks in by the river.

But the reality is, a lot of our range isn't expected to win a ton of money when we open UTG. A5s is definitely one of those hands. So are hands like 77-TT. If I do get 3bet with those hands, which will happen a lot, I want the SPR to be really high. I don't want to be raising to 100-125 and getting 3bet to 300-375. I am giving my opponents so much more free EV when they have premiums by raising so big, and charging myself so much extra money with a speculative hand.

On top of that, if I bet big and get 3bet, now I can't 4bet as large to give my opponent bad odds to call, or I am committing a huge portion of my stack to do so. So what can I do? Tighten up? Even opening Ac5c from UTG I am still seen as a tight player. Do I want to kill my action even further? Not 4bet bluff? Again, kills my action. 4bet merged? Okay, but what does that even mean? I am still not super happy if I get jammed on if I have hands like JJ, TT. It is really a disaster with hands like AQs, AJs, ATs where I just have to fold when jammed on when those hands have great playability as a call. A5s, I can 4bet and fold to a jam without losing sleep.

Basically all of the live crushers that give me the most problems play aggressive and have balanced 4bet ranges. It makes you more difficult to play against and it gets you more action. Seeing it work well for others, it is definitely something I have added to my own game.

In this particular lineup, V1 has 3bet folds and I think there is a decent chance V2 can fold too whether or not V1 calls based on past tendencies. He just seemed to call here because he just seems to do what he likes in the moment.

Finally, a last word on the small size preflop. I will probably get crap for this, but I do solver work based around playing a smaller raise size. I have put in a good amount of hours into studying away from the table and it helps shape the way I play. I have been winning pretty comfortably in this player pool. Yes, there are people who crush harder than me and use a larger raise size. But this is a style that I know I am good at (at least in the games I am playing, I probably would get crushed at higher stakes online by players who have a much better theoretical poker game). I know my playstyle well, and I know my opponents know how to play against it a lot worse than I do. I am more likely to know where they are making mistakes and how to exploit them. They are going to have a much harder time being able to exploit me. I know I make a ton of mistakes, but I know I play a pretty balanced game, and I think they are less likely to be able to pick up on mistakes I make.

Also, keep in mind this table has 2 definite pros, 1 player I have never played against who is supposedly pro, 1 semi-pro/good reg, and 2 meh regs in addition to the two villains in the hand who are also regs. Unfortunately I didn't get to pick my seat and the two villains I want most on my right are on my direct left, but at least the four strongest players were all on my direct right. The more good players at the table, the more I like using the small size pre, and I definitely will size up vs weaker players in the straddle. So V1 is definitely an action player and V2 is mega-action. That's not the whole table though.

Why? We end up going to a flop a million ways, without betting lead. If we 4bet I hope to take it down pre sometimes at least get it heads up and have decent equity and more opportunities to be able to bluff. We confirmed we will have fold equity postflop, V2 even folded top pair on a 2 tone board for less than pot. What's better now is that I can probably get V1 and V2 to call me light when I have it a lot in the future.

the open size seems fine to me. every sim ive seen has us opening as small as possible from the earlier postions. fairly easy ignore of anyone that says to do something else

as for the rest i want to preface my post by saying i think you're a good poster and one of the few people on this forum that seems to have a solid thought process and is likely beating midstakes live. but like i sort of disagree with most of this post. worrying about what the good live crushers do vs you is entirely different than in a spot where you're playing vs 2 fish one of who has put in 700 pre without looking at his hand!!! and the other is described as peeling way too light. i think a5ss plays well multiway and its still very unclear to me that you have any fold equity pre. the guy showing up with t7ss pre kind of confirms that - thats like idk 35+% of hands overall hes continuing with and the ones hes folding he probably folds the first time around. idk i think u got fairly lucky in this hand in alot of different ways. you can talk about wanting the betting lead but what is your actual plan on a board you dont flop a flush draw, gutter or a 5? theres going to be less than a psb left against the field. maybe like K72 u can throw a 10% bet out there and pray but i think the whole see the flop in a 4b pot with the betting lead is being overstated given stacks / dynamics. i think calling closing the action with a5ss is fairly +ev and its unclear to me that the 4bet is regardless of what solvers say at an equilibrium. fwiw if v2 didnt coldcall the 3b id think its fine, i just think trying to 4b bluff into a guy who is literally putting 1k into the pot at a 10/25 game blind is not a great strategy

IDK what I am doing on every board out there. If it was K72, who knows? Who looks at Sims for those spots multiway? I was hoping it would get heads up with an SPR above one. I guess I could opt for a strat that had tiny bet flop, shove turn, and maybe some give ups on turn. Or I could just jam and hope they fold. I will have so much AA, AK, and KK in that spot and my bluffs have to come from somewhere. Not every spot is just going to give me a bunch of hands with a ton of equity. Such is life.

And does it really matter that much if V2 doesn't fold? A5s is way ahead of his calling range anyways. That might be an argument for 4betting by itself. His calling range is probably weaker than everyone else's cold calling ranfd.

Calling with A5s can be fine, I will give you that. But I think it is useful to include in the 4bet bluff arsenal.

As an aside, I played again with villain today, this time picking up AA. 5/5/10/25/50, hero with about 4,500 effective, pro on button opens $150, V2 in 1st blind calls, hero to $750 in the $10 blind, button and V2 call. Flop is 874, two clubs, checks through, no Ac. Turn is offsuit 3, V2 leads for $1,500. SPR will be less than 1 if I call, so hero jams. Button folds, V2 calls and says he is on a flush draw. River offsuit K, we take down the pot.

If V2 gets the impression I don't 3bet and 4bet bluff and always have it when I jam, he might not peel pre here. But he knows I can bluff and he wants to get me so bad, so he gives me action. If I really make him hate me, he may not let me play in his private game anymore. He seemed close to done with me today after the AA hand. I am contemplating punting harder until I lose a big hand to him just as an investment at this point.

What I read in your thought process is a high degree of entitlement tilt. You just want to maintain initiative and win hands instead of win stacks. You justify 4betting pre because you inherently understand calling the 3bet OOP is bad. So rather than just folding and recognizing this is the price you pay for being UTG you try to force the table to something you prefer. What really happened here is your 4bet failed miserably and you got a hail mary bluff through in a spot that should honestly never work. Basically pure spew.

So are you saying in this spot we should never have 4bet bluffs pre? If we do, what hands? And do we ever have bluffs on the flop spot? If so, what hands?

Also, I don't see this as entitlement tilt. I decided long ago that if I get this hand, I am probably 4betting it facing anyone that has light 3bets/3bet bluffs. I looked at my hand pre and knew I would probably 4bet it if I got 3bet before any of the action happened. I made a decision on the flop to go with it. I am not entitled to win at all. I was ready to lose what I had and reload.

If I have 25% equity when called on the flop I only need to generate folds on the flop like 10% of times to profit on this bluff! I was not expecting a T to fold. If I got called, I get to show my hand and say. "ahhh you got me," and hopefully that gives me action from the table in the future.