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/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? /10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD?

11-08-2016 , 08:27 AM
PFR and V1 is MASSIVE whale clicking buttons. Stacked off for 3.5k with K2dd on K26cc 8d 9h by betting flop, c/c turn and donk shoving river.

V2 is a loose rec who plays a super wide range of hands. Doesnt like folding but is decent at hand reading. He calls 3bets super wide 54o etc and floats flops alot.

V3 is a good tournment reg. Knows what he is doing and is been squeezing a bit. Sees hero as TAG and just made a big fold where he was sb and hero BB in straddle pot (4way) and he checked and I went bet bet overbet on Q9Jr, 5, 3. He folded river and didnt seem happy about it. I had KTo but little does he know

We are all $5,000 Effective so ~500bb deep

V1 $50 MP, V2 call MP+1, V3 $250 CO, Hero flats BTN KJ , both call.
(FWIW if I had KJo I would 4bet here as a bluff but KJcc plays well MW and I think theres massive value in letting V1,V2 here)

Flop ($1015): 923. checks to V3 $500, Hero calls. both fold
(with V1 and V2 left to act obv no reason to raise here)

Turn ($2015): 3. co check hero checks (?).
(I expect him to check back JJ/TT here a decent % of the time and barrel with his bluffs. Might have some 9x aswell. Our range looks like TT/JJ/QQ/ (KK/AA to low frequency) FD but mostly QQ/JJ/TT and maybe a slowplayed KK. I think betting is fine, but I like checking back aswell, thoughts on betting turn?)

River ($2015): 8
V checks, we ? If you bet whats your sizing.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 08:37 AM
The only thing we can reasonably rep is like 9x or like TT JJ imo. For that reason I would bet super small and hope that's what our hand looks like to him and hope he just throws away AQ or whatever. Don't think I'd go higher than 600.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque
The only thing we can reasonably rep is like 9x or like TT JJ imo. For that reason I would bet super small and hope that's what our hand looks like to him and hope he just throws away AQ or whatever. Don't think I'd go higher than 600.
I agree on the river our hand mostly looks like TT/JJ, I dont think he expects us to have too many FD or 9x. Interesting bet size choice

What do you think of the turn play and checking vs betting.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque
The only thing we can reasonably rep is like 9x or like TT JJ imo. For that reason I would bet super small and hope that's what our hand looks like to him and hope he just throws away AQ or whatever. Don't think I'd go higher than 600.
+1 the only thing u should be trying to get fold here is ace high/ nut flush draw and maybe, maybe a small pair. As you stated this guy is competent and a tourney reg, so it looks a lot like a 9x/small pair, or Ace high flush with the idea being to take it down on the flop when he connected or on a flop that wasn't super scary in a multiway pot for his hand. given his range is super weak on the river he can only put us on big clubs (which is what we happen to have) that he beats and probably hero calls at a low enough frequency in this spot to make the bluff worth it. Plus as u mention from the previous hand, he knows how to fold. a small bet is enough to get what we need to fold, to fold and betting too big will make him really think about what you have that you are flatting multi-way on the flop and then bombing after the river. a big bet might make him think (missed draw) and incline him to hero call as apposed to perceiving you as trying to get a small value bet with JJ+ which is what we are repping on the river to get him to fold.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque
The only thing we can reasonably rep is like 9x or like TT JJ imo. For that reason I would bet super small and hope that's what our hand looks like to him and hope he just throws away AQ or whatever. Don't think I'd go higher than 600.

This. + 1


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/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 09:08 AM
I think he is check calling turn a ton with hands like 77, 88, 98s, T9s and check folding hands like AQ whiffled. I like checking the turn as I would check my most 9x as well.


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/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybattle
I think he is check calling turn a ton with hands like 77, 88, 98s, T9s and check folding hands like AQ whiffled. I like checking the turn as I would check my most 9x as well.


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I dont think he is squeezing pre with 88/77. and yeah he could be playing T9s/98s like this.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 09:23 AM
Fold pre, bet turn, as played check back or bet 1300ish.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night
I dont think he is squeezing pre with 88/77. and yeah he could be playing T9s/98s like this.

Oh, my bad. I thought he flats pre. Yeah, that makes sense. He could be checking TT/JJ as well.

In my 3bet cold call range, I hardly have 9x here.

Then, I don't mind betting turn small now, like 700 as his turn check calling range is narrower.


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/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by busticator
Fold pre, bet turn, as played check back or bet 1300ish.
Even vs 2 very fun players who will flat the squeeze 95% of the time? And even if the squeezer is a MTT reg who will squeeze wider then your average cash player?
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night
Even vs 2 very fun players who will flat the squeeze 95% of the time? And even if the squeezer is a MTT reg who will squeeze wider then your average cash player?
Yes even after all these things
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 10:39 AM
Bet turn, as played check back river, our line doesnt make sense for value, we get looked up here way too often imo
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggyzaooo
Yes even after all these things
Why?
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 11:01 AM
I'd probably fold pre there too. You can't be sure of the MTT regs squeeze tendencies there. I'd rather have AXcc for obvious reasons (blocker to aces, know you're drawing to the nuts 500bb deep) etc..

As played, I'd bet turn. You can find folds there from lower pocket pairs for sure if you size up for sure as you're repping a ton of strength - there shouldn't be a ton of FDs in your range there other than maybe KQ AJ AT AK
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 11:30 AM
I also agree with fold pre fwiw. I'd probably find a call with kqss though.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 11:36 AM
KQss I probably call. It's important that we have another blocker to dem Queens which means more JJ out there and we can actually dominate more confidently.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 12:56 PM
I'd rather call A3s pre than KJs here but I'm calling both FWIW. So much value in having the 2 players 500bb deep left to act. This might be wrong though.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night
PFR and V1 is MASSIVE whale clicking buttons. Stacked off for 3.5k with K2dd on K26cc 8d 9h by betting flop, c/c turn and donk shoving river.

Nice line. I'll bet he gets looked up by all sorts of ****.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 01:59 PM
4b kjo and calling with kjs makes not so much sense
why do you want to put more money in with a worse hand, and this will also lead you to be 4b bluffing way 2 much (theres many more off suit combos of this hand)
anyway, if i thought dude was out of line id use this or qjs as the bottom of a 4b range.
you could also just fold and use kqs as the bottom of a 4b range
anyway as played id probably raise flop and go from there
cold calling 3bs is usually not a winning strategy, vs a guy like this id probably just 4b my whole continuing range (which would be pretty tight) to like 2.2-2.5x
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 02:39 PM
Why isolate him vs letting 2 huge "fun" players flat behind?
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 02:39 PM
KJss plays very well MW vs their contjnuing range which will be very wide
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-08-2016 , 08:58 PM
Pre seems fine this deep IP and with 2 bad players who'll likely come along and spew off post.

Flop flat ok, I prefer raising to like $1250 though since flop is quite dry and doesn't hit V1/V2 ranges much and we have a non-nut FD/K high/puts V3 in a tough spot with almost all his range/we should have most of the sets.

AP, I would bet turn like $1.1k since our overcard outs could easily be dominated, we should have TT+ a decent amount for value.

OTR, I would probably give up a ton or bet small as suggested above, we rep pretty thin like pot controlling TT/JJ, very few 9x since we cold called pre except 99.
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-10-2016 , 09:38 AM
I think we may end up having the best hand OTR a very small % of the time AP so we should def check and obviously check coz we have 0 value combos here/rep nothing.

On this board texture/run out i'll be def betting all my 9x and pairs OTT i might check back some AJ-AK OTT (because we are prolly ahead/have the best hand and don't really need protection depending on if villain will be 3-betting light deepstacked i don't play 5/10 but i assume so) therefore we are going to have enuf value.

2 overs + FD is basically a value hand here as well i would check back stuff like 78c, but you have to think about how many value bets you have here as well and how villain is constructing their ranges. Also it depends if villain is going to have x-raising or x-calling ranges OTT in this spot etc...
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-10-2016 , 11:12 AM
Thanks for feedback. In hindsight I like betting turn, I am uncapped and he cant really c/r almost ever as I have all combos of 99 and he doesnt.

Spoiler:
I bet $825 river and he called with AQ
/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote
11-10-2016 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night
Thanks for feedback. In hindsight I like betting turn, I am uncapped and he cant really c/r almost ever as I have all combos of 99 and he doesnt.



Spoiler:
I bet $825 river and he called with AQ

That is really a bad call with hands block most of the missed draws.

You can mark this hand and value bet super thin against him


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/10 500bb deep turn bluff with FD? Quote

      
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