2/5NL straight/flush facing heavy multiway flop action - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

STRAIGHT/FLUSH DRAW sorry for omitting the DRAW in the title

UTG 1 - $1400 - typical 60s retired TAG
UTG 2 - $475 - plays 3/5 hands he's dealt, loves to float
CO - $550 - donkey TAG, over plays AK AQ thinks TPTK is nuts
Hero (BU) - $750

Pre Flop:
J

UTG 1 opens for $25, UTG2 calls, CO calls, hero calls

Flop $106:
9

UTG1 checks, UTG2 checks, CO bets $50
Hero raises $125, UTG1 min raises $250, UTG2 calls $250, CO shoves $550

Hero - ????

Not too worried about CO shoving given his playing style, but UTG1 min raising and UTG2 flatting here is just screaming J/K all day. This is a jam or fold with any K or diamond making the nutz over JK.

Last edited by hoplo; 02-17-2015 at 07:22 AM.

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02-17-2015 , 07:22 AM

Svndeuce89

stranger

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 13

If you don't mind variance I think this is a spot to reshove. 9 outs to the nuts with $1326 already in the pot. Shove > call > fold imo.
I don't like the raise to $125 otf. I think something around $185-$220 makes our decision easier.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using 2+2 Forums

Last edited by Svndeuce89; 02-17-2015 at 07:36 AM.

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02-17-2015 , 07:43 AM

discgolfing

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 370

Shove, and it isnt close. Even if you were up against the worst possible combination of hands (which is unlikely with described villains), assuming it goes all in 4 ways you are never worse than ~25% to scoop and never worse than 35% to beat the big stack. Your odds will be even better if someone folds somehow. Fool around in propokertools. You have a lot invested already so folding is always going to be -EV. And calling is pointless with so little behind.

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02-17-2015 , 08:10 AM

acescracked84

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,626

All in, not close. UTG1 has a set and UTG2 has a straight but there's way too much in the pot already to fold. BTW, I would have definitely flat the CO's $50 on the flop, but it would have played nearly the same anyways.

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02-17-2015 , 08:36 AM

Nice_Guy_Eddie

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,135

Gotta shove. You have 13 nut outs in a 4-way pot. I haven't run the numbers, but I guarantee it's +EV to shove.

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02-17-2015 , 09:11 AM

OSUTexan

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,210

All in all day...too much action in the pot to let this go.

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02-17-2015 , 03:22 PM

Sebastes Pinneger

adept

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 721

60 something TAGS are rarely close to 0% raising KJ UTG.

One of our Villains has a set given the action IMO.

Against Multi V's ranges including sets, 2pair combos and made straights we have 33% equity.

Good enough to get it in a against the field, I doubt anyone is folding.

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02-17-2015 , 03:56 PM

Siculamente

banned

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 2,144

Put all your chips in the middle

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02-17-2015 , 05:07 PM

DK Barrel

Concept of the Week author

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 6,797

Yeah just rip it in. Would be a fold if you had the non-nut FD as you would be crushed by a made hand + better draw. But the absolute worst case scenario possible for you (that I can think of) is still 28.6% equity, against KJx2 and a set (giving you 9 outs). There's 1175 in the middle, if nobody ever folds you're putting in 625 to win 1900 (I think I have that right.) You'd only need 24.75% equity to make jamming correct.

At the very worst, shoving is nearly +$100 EV.

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02-17-2015 , 05:22 PM

#10

Shell Gas

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 225

Hands play themselves at this point.

I would just call.

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02-17-2015 , 05:42 PM

#11

hoplo

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,265

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shell Gas

Hands play themselves at this point.

I would just call.

I don't see a point in just calling here because that leaves me with less than $200 back... it's not like i'm going to fold on the turn and if anyone was going to call CO shove then my extra $$ is not going to make them fold.

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02-17-2015 , 05:46 PM

#12

Shell Gas

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 225

Although AJ has some SD value, it probably isn't going to win the hand unimproved.

In plain words, if no one else is folding, you could still fold on river.

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02-17-2015 , 05:57 PM

#13

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 13,104

This would be an auto-shove for me.

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02-17-2015 , 05:57 PM

#14

Sebastes Pinneger

adept

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 721

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shell Gas

Although AJ has some SD value, it probably isn't going to win the hand unimproved.

In plain words, if no one else is folding, you could still fold on river.

We are at the Flop here, doubt the Turn gets checked through.

We can fold if Turn pairs board after calling, but prefer to GII on Flop.

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02-17-2015 , 05:59 PM

#15

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 13,104

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shell Gas

Although AJ has some SD value, it probably isn't going to win the hand unimproved.

In plain words, if no one else is folding, you could still fold on river.

Of course it needs to improve -- that's the point. Calling w/ $200 behind is losing value if there is any chance V1 (and V2) comes along. I'd sooner fold than just call.

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02-17-2015 , 06:01 PM

#16

hoplo

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,265

Action:

Hero ships it, UTG1 calls, UTG2 tanks and then calls.

Turn 6

River 4

UTG1 shows J

- I was not expecting him to open with that but when he checked and min-raised it was the only thing that made sense.

UTG2 rage slams J

on the table

CO just mucks...

Total pot was a little over 2,500 so definitely +EV here given how live the hand was. For some reason I was doubting my shove, but that's prob just normal reaction to variance.

Thanks everyone

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02-17-2015 , 06:07 PM

#17

Shell Gas

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 225

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

Of course it needs to improve -- that's the point. Calling w/ $200 behind is losing value if there is any chance V1 (and V2) comes along. I'd sooner fold than just call.

Losing what value?

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02-17-2015 , 06:27 PM

#18

wager9

journeyman

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 257

Yup..its a shove...but QUESTION:

Most of the time I flat pre as well...BUT what do you guys think of 3-betting this pre-flop?

We are still likely ahead of UTG+1 a lot fo the time and if Hero's read is good on him then we can pretty much know where we stand all the time post flop. And the other 2 we are ahead of a ton of the time. We take the lead in the hand and we have position with a good hand that plays well post against villains that we can likely know where we stand and play well against. And on the off chance we do hit the hand we actually hit, it makes it easier to play? Thoughts?

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02-17-2015 , 06:32 PM

#19

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 13,104

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shell Gas

Losing what value?

The extra $400 in the pot. I want as much money in there as possible with this draw(s).

Are you seriously going to call $550, leave $200 behind, and fold on a blank turn? Or, call $550 and fold when V! and/or V2 shoves?

The only play here is shove. If you are a total scared money nit, folding is fine. Calling is criminal.

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02-17-2015 , 06:37 PM

#20

Shell Gas

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 225

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

Are you seriously going to call $550, leave $200 behind, and fold on a blank turn? Or, call $550 and fold when V! and/or V2 shoves?

Didn't say that and don't think I implied that either.

Clearly the two choices are to call or shove, and obviously if we don't think there is any added FE nor any of our opponents is folding on turn or river, a call is better.

And you agreed, just that you don't see it clearly enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

The extra $400 in the pot. I want as much money in there as possible with this draw(s).

It doesn't matter when they put the money in the pot if they're not folding.

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02-17-2015 , 06:41 PM

#21

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 13,104

So you are calling on the flop and calling all in on a blank turn? And calling on the flop if someone else pushes?

I just want to understand if you are ever folding after calling the $550?

I would still never just call on the flop (and I think it's a mistake) because I want the money in there and I don't want to give them the option of folding the turn.

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02-17-2015 , 06:47 PM

#22

Shell Gas

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 225

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

I would still never call just call on the flop because I want the money in there and I don't want to give them the option of folding the turn.

We are HU against +1 if everyone just call the flop.

+1 doesn't have any room to fold given the pot size, but he does have the room to mistakenly check turn.

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02-17-2015 , 06:59 PM

#23

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 13,104

Just to make sure, if the turn blanks and V1 bets your last $200, you are calling, correct?

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02-17-2015 , 07:02 PM

#24

Shell Gas

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 225

Yes. Is there a point to the question?

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02-17-2015 , 07:09 PM

#25

au4all

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,872

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

Of course it needs to improve -- that's the point. Calling w/ $200 behind is losing value if there is any chance V1 (and V2) comes along. I'd sooner fold than just call.

Do you realize that you haven't produced one bit of explanation except just saying cause ...?

If you're so sure that we're losing value then you must be equally sure that our hand is ahead -- that is that he doesn't have a straight or a set. Reading this over the internet how can you be so certain?

Often if there's an empty side-pot people end up checking it down. There's no reason to put more money into the pot with what is clearly not the best hand and is clearly not a hand that we can value bet.

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