I'm c/c all the way If u think villain is capable of making a move. Otherwise fold pre or c/c flop and x/f turn. 4b and c/r makes no sense u want players like this to barrel u. Yea he shows up w better sometimes and sometimes catches up. But if he's as active Ans aggro as u say then c/c and bluff catch

Think about what your motivation / reasoning would be for calling / 4-betting (and god forbid folding) pre, and same with leading flop / C/R'ing / c/c lead turn or whatever other line you want to take.

I see now why leading flop is not optimal. C/C allows us to pot control when we have little chance to improve when we're beat; while extracting value from hands like 99-JJ. We are essentially way ahead or way behind. My one concern is what the plan is when he barrels later streets. What is your plan if he continues betting OTT if (a) A/K falls (b) 9-J falls (c) any other non-Q falls?

finally some sense i was reading some replies just thinking "son i am dissapoint"

@op if you called pre because you think your ahead of his 3b range then nothings changed on this flop... let him barrel keeping air in his range

i also fold pre dont think its great spot to set mine
yeah its expliotable but you said hes paying attention prob expects you to be opening narrow range that likely does not fold much to 3b.


pot control waaah?

if A / K falls on turn we play pokers but likely fold in this spot.
if we knew more about his 3b range we could keep clicking kawl

So, Villain has 3-bet three times in how many orbits? We know a tight 3-bet range (QQ+/AK) is less than 3%. Granted, we have very small sample, but, in conjunction with other information (e.g. triple barrel with AK), it sounds like Villain does 3-bet light. Sometimes, playing live, I think we need to make ASSUMPTIONS because we are short of data. If we accept Villain 3-bets light, then I much prefer 4-betting with QQ, especially as Hero doesn't seem fully comfortable playing Villain post-flop. Definitely call flop and reassess turn ...

4b/call preflop is worse than calling pre and stacking off on a low board.

To see why - if we call the 3b we keep some of his weaker hands in. He also may bluff his air that misses the flop. So if we end up stacking, we're in better shape if we don't 4b pre.

If we 4b pre and he shoves for $850, we're crushed. He thinks we're tight so he may not be shoving back AK and unless he's horrid he's not shipping lower PP's than QQ. In fact he probably shouldn't shove AK because it looks like we're not folding and we're usually holding KK+ and sometimes QQ.

4betting because "we don't feel comfortable playing preflop" is a mistake. If we think he's totally FOS we can 4b A3s and take it down. If we're playing QQ for stacks 850 deep, why are we better off getting it in preflop and folding all of his weaker hands/bluffs?

The big problem here is not having a plan for the hand. If you really feel uncomfortable, we can always fold pre OOP. Sure it looks weak, but it's better than getting in this pot and having no idea what to do. I've done this a lot. QQ looks good, but if you can't figure out what to do you can always fold, try to move to his left or leave the table if he's 3b you really badly this deep.

If you think his range is really wide AND you think he'll multibarrel bluff you can c/c, CRAI. But unless he's an idiot, if you call the raise and c/c the flop he's going to assume you have an overpair and probably assume you're not folding, so he probably should check back worse.

It sounds crazy, but I think you can almost min CR/fold here because from his perspective if he has 99-JJ he beats NOTHING and you're like never bluffing. He has to think you're never folding, so if he ships he has 87, a set or KK+. Because he thinks you're never folding, you can probably fold.

This might be crazy, and it only applies if the villain is as good as you say he is, which might be totally off. Anyone think that move isn't horrible? Maybe a c/c b/f turn?

^^^ I like these postflop suggestions but these lines are still open to exploitation, depending in Villain's read on Hero's image. The advantage of 4betting is that a 5bet by Villain is far more unlikely than a 4bet call. If Villain flats a 4bet, Hero can play this sort of flop in a much more straightforward way, given a lower SPR. Also, since Villain has a high 3-bet frequency, a history of 4betting him relatively deep, gives Hero some meta game edge IMO.

Why do you think a 4b/call is good? If it goes 4b/call I'm probably c/f any flop that's not Q high. Do you think villain is going to CALL AK after a 4b? If he's playing it he's going to ship or fold. When he calls a 4b he's trapping you with probably AA every time. Maybe he calls KK too, but it's not like he's going to flat a 4b with pocket 9's.

If he's really 3betting that light, and he's competent, we can once or twice per session 4b hands like A3s that have blockers as a stone bluff because he's probably not likely to 5b light vs unknowns. The problem with 4b queens is that we fold out all of the "light" hands we want in and keep all of the really strong hands we don't.

Personally I don't like flat pre for the reason there're almost no flop we like, except maybe queen on flop, I'd 4bet/fold $260-280ish

What? So we're trying to fold out hands worse than ours then lead into a range that has us crushed?

I agree that given this dynamic, it is better to flat than to 4bet pre. But if someone asking for advice is not confident in their post flop skills oop against a decent player, I don't see why 4betting pre is a bigger mistake than flatting and playing subpar poker.

what hands that we beat will call the 4b?

Do not listen to this person.

Why not? Never, ever in poker say "I have XX. XX is a good hand (but not the nuts). Therefore I can never fold" We're deep OOP vs a good player with a hand that we can't get called by worse and can't get better to fold.

If we're going to 4b here we'd better realize that our QQ is essentially a stone bluff that's ~ A3 here. Actually it's probably worse than A3 because sometimes he'll shove KK and A3 has more equity.

I see what you mean. If we're not confident playing post then I guess I agree. But in that case, I hope we're 4b/folding as a bluff essentially and just using our good hands like QQ to bluff so we don't bluff too much.

4b/calling QQ 170bb deep OOP vs a good, aggressive player IMO is going to be worse than just folding pre.

There are a few points to consider here:

1. While against most Villains, you can narrow a 4bet flat range to KK+, on this occasion we are dealing with a more aggressive player. Just as a reminder here's the OP description of him again:

Villain ~$1500 CO. Latino, in his 20's, clean cut, some what chatty. Mostly raising when coming into pots from Ep, Mp, and Lp. I think he cbets almost everytime. He has been active at the table. He did run a 3 barrel bluff with a missed flush draw he was betting 2/3 pot otf, ott, otr. One hand he raised to $30 on the button after 2 limpers and got check raised to 110 to which he instantly mucked showing a deuce. He raised a few broadways and went to value town. He is defitnetly paying attention to what is going on and knows i am playing straight forward.

He's playing a wide range preflop, I believe you would agree. And I believe you would acknowledge his 3-bet range is wider than most. So, why, all of a sudden do we assign him a standard 0.9%/12 Combo 4-bet calling range?

2. I would be advocating a min raise type of 4-bet, so as to encourage this Villain to call wider. If Hero raises, say, a further $100, with effective stacks of $850, then a thinking and aggressive Villain (who raises from every position and triple barrels) may just treat this more like a 3-bet scenario and call to set-mine with p/p or draws with s/c or to see a flop with JJ or AK.

What does a min 4b really achieve? If we get shoved on, I guess we're folding right? If we're looking to induce a shove and snap call, lets at least know that we're doing that.

If villain is competent, he's only going to setmine if he's getting proper setmining odds. He's not going to "call to see a flop" with some random sc.

If we're not comfortable playing post, what do we do on a K/A/otherwise scary flop? Are we always stacking low flops? Why would this situation be better than simply calling the 3b in that case?

We don't know anything about his 4b/5b range. There are a lot of players that 3b light, but never 5b light. When you min 4b, what does he think you have? He's going to think QQ+ because that's what anyone ever has at LLSNL that 4b's and he's going to know that you're almost never folding. Thus he never makes a postflop mistake if he calls.

Leading this flop might be the worst line taken in the history of poker.

As for preflop. Spots kind of sucks cause we are OOP. I prefer 4b small/folding pre. If he shoves over my 4bet with AK or any of his light 3bets then nh. We got outplayed. I would 4bet to ~230.

The problem with flatting is that even on an awesome board for QQ, which this is, we have no idea what to do and we can't extract value from worse. Playing OOP sucks.

He also might make a mistake and flat our 4bet with his 88-jj and we can probably get to showdown super-cheap on most boards vs the hands we actually beat.

This is sane.

In fact, 4bet QQ in this spot is surely the most terrible line ever. It's simply driving a full-speed car onto the basic concept on keeping our villains range the widest possible. We raise, we narrow his range. What's the point on doing that? He'll fold his light range, and crush us with his QQ+ range. It's moronic.

If we're playing the hand, I think one possible line is c/c low flops till the end if we're stacking off.

Other than that, why is it so terrible to donk the flop? Many aggro villains will take this as weakness and raise their entire range, and that's just what we want him to do. Make him commit a mistake.

We only 4-bet him in a crazy meta-game spot where he may think you're light and shove his air and blablabla what's clearly not happening here. If he's half-capable he knows you're playing straightforward and will play pretty straightforward against your straightforward line. And that's another reason to why NOT 4-bet him.

The 4-bet/fold with A3/KQ is the only hand that's not KK+, maybe AK, that we're 4-betting here.

If hero doesn't have a plan for the hand, just muck it pre.

If we're not stacking off on this board why would we even call the 3bet in the first place?

I think one of the issues I see is that people fall in love with "good" hands and they just don't want to fold. "I CAN'T LET SOME LAG GUY BLUFF ME OFF OF QQ!"

I reread the description and nowhere does it says he 3b's light or goes nuts. He iso's limping fish. I Iso limping fish. I'm not going to 3b UTG raisers with 99 and then run an $800 bluff. For all we know the guy ONLY 3b's QQ+ AK but is a competent value fiend and iso's properly.

You're 170bb deep and you have what should be a competent player behind you. If you're not sure what to do, there's nothing wrong with folding.

The more i look at it the description of villain is not a maniac. He gets value with the best hand. He sometimes barrels the river with a flush draw, which is not crazy LAG. I bet my draws too, so the only "aggro" thing he really did was barrel the river (which worked). He iso's 22 or A2s OTB. A little loose but not crazy.

The more I look at this, villain (as described) is not a maniac and there's no evidence he 3b's light. I think a fold pre is totally fine because even a hand like QQ OOP is going to give us massive problems.

Because even if we call this post, we only really get value from bluffs, and I see nothing in villain's description that he's going to try to blow us off of an obvious overpair in a 3b pot when most of the player pool cannot fold overpairs for any amount.

[QUOTE=PokerIsFrustrating;32038961]

The more I look at this, villain (as described) is not a maniac and there's no evidence he 3b's light. I think a fold pre is totally fine because even a hand like QQ OOP is going to give us massive problems.
QUOTE]

I don't think anyone suggested Villain is a maniac. But he is raising from most positions with a wide-range in an aggressive fashion. While 3-betting light might not be in his repertoire, it seems more likely than not that it is. Against such a player QQ is a highly valuable hand---I can't believe how many are advocating folding preflop. Sure, against, a nit, who is playing 10/8/2, but against this guy? I'm not saying he doesn't have KK+, but we're ranging here aren't we, based on player tendencies?

There is a big difference between OPENING or ISO-RAISING pre and 3betting, especially 3betting early position raisers.

I raise all the time, especially over limps. I don't 3b light very much at all, and when I do it's because a guy makes an abnormally small raise (which is always speculative crap) or when it's an LP open. Everything else is for value, and you're going to have trouble playing QQ vs my value range from OOP, especially 170bb deep because when I'm ahead I'm going to get all your money but when you're ahead you aren't going to get all of my money.

I said we should call, but people said "well, maybe we're not good postflop." If that's the case we either 4b/fold or just fold to the 3b. But QQ is going to be equivalent of A3s IMO if we 4b because he's not going 5b bluff a tight player who raise/4b from EP unless he's terrible. At least A3s blocks AK and AA.

Even with the call it's not an easy postflop spot OOP.

I would try to call and play it the best I could. But IMO there's nothing wrong with folding to this guy 170bb deep with QQ which is simply not an automatically nut must-stack hand in NL.

We don't win $$ at NL trying to get in thin spots vs good players. We win at NL by maximizing our wins vs vs bad players.

i think there are two choices here, fold pre if you arent confident in your ability to play the guy oop in a tough spot (dont let your ego get in the way of the right decision) or call pre and call him down on non scary boards

against a guy like this the worst thing you can do (imo) is call pre, call non scary flop and fold non scary turn, you need to make up your min as early as possible what you are gonna do and stick with it

4betting pre tells him exactly where ur at he either insta mucks if beat or wins the pot

check raise flop is basically the same thing

nothing at all wrong with folding pre, you are pretty deep but not deep enough to call $90 oop to set mine, and if you dont wanna play a high variance game and try to play table sheriff just move on to the next hand, sure it may look a lil weak, and most certainly is very weak, but the other players at the table dont know what u folded


o and justplayingsmarts post on the first page was one of the better posts ive read on this board

all participants in this discussion need to watch the 31 part series "game theory poker" on you tube. it appears that none of you have.
preflop you must raise or fold oop. the top 34 hand combinations (which includes QQ+, AK) should raise/shove here. poker stove will tell you that you are favorite against his 3bet range of TT+, AK (and of course against all lesser hands). you put yourself in a very bad position otf without getting any fold equity if you check/call

I could care less what your youtube poker series says (youtube is obviously the be-all-end-all of poker knowledge).

If his 3b range is wide and his 5b/call 4b range is very tight, there is nothing inherently wrong with calling the 3b OOP with some hands. It's going to be hard to play post, but if we play well we can try it. Or we can fold. Or we can 4b, but we're probably 4b/folding if we're going to 4b.

You also obviously have no concept of equity and hand ranges. Raise/shoving 200bb deep with QQ is pretty horrible UNLESS HE'S GOING TO CALL WORSE.

If his 3b range is TT+, AK he's not going to 5b shove or call a 4b shove from you with TT unless he's a moron, which villain in this hand is not described as. If you 4b shove this for $800 more you're going to get called by KK+ only.

Try to stove QQ vs KK/AA and see what stove tells you (hint, you're not a favorite).