Given that he was isolating just the fish from late position I figured he could have a pretty wide range of hands, so yeah... I wasn't shocked he flipped over 85s or anything, although I probably didn't really account for it until I had already botched the hand if I'm being honest.

I'm surprised people want to just fold a pair pre for 300bb, even here. Most of the flops I like aren't going to also have straights out there, so it's not like I'm expecting to get into a spot where I flop a set and only have the 5th nuts (where I'm up against 14 hand combos that smoke me instead of just 6 and where Villain will have equity hands to semi-bluff 3bet me with).

3betting pre looks pretty bad imo because my hand flops terribly and if he calls my 3bet in position I'm going to pretty much get used with 66 unless I spike or he misses and plays fit or fold on the flop (neither of which are likely). Plus it pushes the fish out for sure. I'm not sure what my 3bet range would look like here but I think it's basically premiums (QQ+, AK, AQs, maybe JJ but probably not) and then probably some mid/small suited gappers and/or connectors which would otherwise be the top of my folding range.

I think here pre it's call>fold>raise, but folding pre is definitely never a big mistake and might be worth considering due to position and the fact that Villain's range is wide (i.e. it'll be harder for me to know where he's at and he's less likely to have premium hands that I can profit against when I do flop big).

To me these two scenarios are almost the same thing anyway. As a general rule, I dont c/r my value hands unless Im looking to play for stacks. Since Im not looking to play for stacks on this flop, I dont c/r. I dont know if that makes sense the way I worded it.

100%. If I was playing my "A" game (if I had an A game?) I would have gone through the same progression. "Okay, maybe I'll c/r. Wait.. am I cool getting stacks in here if he comes back over the top? No? So I'm planning on turning bottom set into a bluff on the flop? Whoops. I call."

Yea thats exactly what I meant from the theory PoV about c/r-ing here and then folding to a 3b. You might as well have complete air when you do that. Pretty much once I set my plan in place, I go with it. So if my plan was to c/r the flop here, then I never fold which is why I gave the original response that did.

This hand is really interesting though and made me think a lot more about relative hand strength as opposed to absolute hand strength. I also think I put too much emphasis on image in general and not enough on board texture and stack sizes.

yeah dynamic is tough to figure out...but some issues related to that:
1. Online players tend to play a bit tighter when deep. I'm not sure if I could say that about a HU player.
2. How many hands have you been playing with him (or how many hours)?
3. Other than that A5s hand, are there any other hands that you were involved with him? Has he seen you make moves at the table? What types of showdowns have you been giving? How often have you c/r?

It's tough to really get an accurate view of how villain's perceive you and how that image is different from what you perceive to be your playing style. I think #3 is important since it is the only info that villain has against you.

I said in an earlier post that you should donk flop. I still stand by it. I don't like the c/r at all. Donking flop will allow you to trap fish as well as keep villain from playing perfectly against you (since i think a c/r telegraphs your range).

Yes and agree with above post about having a plan for your hand.

just my 2 c.

Agreed on donking flop probably being the best way to play this hand.

As for the other things...

1. I think I may have skewed perspective by identifying Villain as an "online" player. I've played plenty online and didn't mean to imply that I believe he's reckless or bluff happy or any other weird live vs. internet stereotype. I just included it to say that I have reason to believe Villain's level of play/thinking is sufficient to make him a winner at games much tougher than the one we're currently sitting at.

2. We've been playing for hours at this point. At least 5 or 6. He got it all in against his friend earlier for 100bb with JT against J9 on a T87r flop and I forget how else he got stacked earlier. He got his hands on most of the money in front of him by tripling up in a pretty standard spot ai on flop with nfd+gutter against top 2 and tp+2nfd (KJ3dd).

3. I'd been fairly active but I hadn't been caught totally out of line since the A5 hand. I stacked somebody earlier when I flopped bottom pair with a flush draw on a AJ6hh board, squeezed the cbet and a call on the flop, barrelled a blank turn and jammed a 6 on the river and I flopped a set against of 8s against another Villain, raised flop with it (can't remember if i was ip or oop), played it fast and got paid by an overpair. Other than that I think most of my action has been in smaller pots, but I was playing pretty standard for me in these games in that I was involved in plenty of pots at least to the flop and definitely wasn't just trying to get to showdown when I was showing interest (i.e. raising flops, betting turns when checked to, barrelling, w/e). I think I may have pot controlled TT on like a Qxxxx board against a nitty TAG earlier when I should have at least made a vbet on the river, but who knows if Villain even noticed or cared, and that would be an isolated incident.

Agreed that a lot of the times it's hard (but imperative) to separate out how you view yourself vs. how Villain views you. That said, the only other spot of any significance that involved Villain and me directly was the A5 hand and ime people are much more likely to remember/weight the hands they played with you to the extent that they're paying attention at all because they care more about their own money more than somebody else's.

i like the analysis. yeah i don't think online players are all that reckless, bluff happy. i was actually thinking that online players are generally much tighter in deep situations than live counterparts. but i get your point.

anyways, it's close either way, but as played - i'd say fold is slightly better than shoving and calling is probably the worst option here

rather 6 hands

in regards to the its 6 am and you dont want to get cooloered comment--- this horrible logic- do you understand why? the time of day and whether you are up/down/lucky/unlucky makes absolutely no difference

for someone who posts in every thread i dont understand why you dont get this....