If that's his range, then we should stack off. We're 45% against that range and our pot odds for all in are better than that at 41%. The more I do these pokerstove calculations the more I realize you should basically never fold a set on flops like these.

Mark yr. logic about deepstack play and how it affects ingame decisions is... well definitely logical.

If u post advice here about hand as played i think u know that with dynamics as described is a close jam. given psr, yr. line, his line, stackdepths, blabla...there enough room to jam and it be profitable.

I hate hate saying this, but dude you knew the guy was a good lag, 300 bigs effective IP, u called a 9x open with a utg limper , cr-ed a connecting flop w/bottom set with admittedly no plan/reasoning... Ive definitely done Infinitely worse mistakes, just trying to look at this from an objective point of view.

I might be misunderstanding this... but you're not saying fold pre right? because thats a standard call preflop with stack sizes

I mean at this point now it just becomes a leveling situation doesnt it? He knows youre very strong, you know he knows this, so he shoves the turn light repping the nuts. If you believe that to be true, then that is an argument for calling the flop and c/c-ing any not 5/T turn as you said.

I dont like calling the flop though because I dont believe competent villains try to get other people to fold sets. Thats probably too oversimplified, but I think its pretty accurate. I believe that if the villain can take this line with a pair+oesd, then its better to get the money in now as opposed to risking the chance he takes one off on a blank turn. If you dont think he checks back a blank turn, then Im curious why you would want to shove the flop.

One thing I did want to say earlier but I got side tracked was why are you c/r-ing the flop in the first place if youre not comfortable playing for stacks?


I wouldnt say its standard to call here preflop when youre oop. I would think about calling since the CO is likely trying to isolate the MP limper, but I dont think that would be my default. I dont think most people realize how important position really is. A major reason why this hand is so difficult is due to the fact that were oop.

agreed i dont think he took the best line but its not terrible at the same time

Agreed 100% that I blew this hand big time on the flop and the spot I ended up in was basically God punishing me for playing so terribly and getting into this spot, this deep, against the only player at the table who was capable of making my life hell. Leading or c/cing flop are both infinitely better than what I did (for so many reasons) and you're 100% right that I was basically just thinking "splendid, I have a set and a crazy image, let's do this" when I c/red the flop and gave absolutely no thought whatsoever to even the possibility that I would get 3bet. My mistake for sure, but it's good to have that kind of reminder (that this deep you can't autopilot a hand like this and that I need to always be planning out the hand) even if it's expensive because it keeps me from getting lazy.

That said, I was at least curious if - even with dynamics - we think giving Villain 88 and 98s as part of his range (I think 87 is considerably less likely fwiw because I think having the 9 helps his semibluff) is being, well, optimistic. Our equity against his value range is a pitiful 22%, so you've gotta really believe he's doing this with 98s and 88 (at least - and that he's always playing them this way) for this to be a jam.

My point was, and apologized to OP in advance since he obv understands itre-we flat for setmine (talking from a pure value pov obv), get it, cr with what i can explain only as to level our range in v-s eye- and still V manages to put us in a mother****er i hate this **** kinda spot. So, we have to just rack out when we're oop against a capable (mayb quite capable) opponent 300 bigs effectively when we dont know how to handle implications that this instance might bring us to.

Also, Mark u might want to crosspost this hand in mid-hi fullring. There's some quite excellent posters there.

Don't agree that calling pre is bad.

I think if I had taken a c/c pot control kind of line that underrepped my hand (so Villain could VB thinner or bluff wider) and allowed me to save money in spots where it gets ugly that I still could have played this hand pretty profitably in spite of being OOP. We also know the Fish is coming along and that that we'll be able to get most/all his monies when we hit and he connects with something (though that is, admittedly, a small portion of the total).

The flop c/r is pretty clearly, imo, the disaster point in this hand.

Also, fwiw, I had position on Villain in every situation except the ones where I was least likely to care (from the blinds, UTG) due to the seating arrangement and the table had a number of bad spots with a fair amount of money in front of them ----> leaving was never an option. That said, I didn't need to celebrate it by playing pots with this particular kid OOP.

again, while im bad at getting a point across, flatting, while not ideal is Not even close to bad .

And just a lapse on me with the oop thing.

I ****ing hate villains who can put u in puke spots too dude.

To avoid feeling soulraped, just fold and tell the dealer he is a mean person for dealing that flop..

Gotcha. Sorry, I think I'm just a bad reader. ;-) Agreed that none of this is ideal, because as you said we (er...I) chose to get involved OOP 300bb deep against a tough player.

Like your final action more than mine. I shoved (happy to provide reasons why if anybody cares, though most of it has been covered of course), he snapped, flipped 85s while I puked in my mouth, and I rivered a 7 because I play like a monkey and run like God.

Today's Lesson - "Poker: You're either lucky or you're not."

Based on everything you know about the villain, I assume the villain also knows that you know that about him? And if so, then shoving here allows him to think that you have put him on either two pair or a set, in which case he starts seeing you as having the straight?

The way I see it, it is not about what you have here, or what you think he has, but more about what you think he thinks you have. And this is the perfect opportunity to represent the straight. If he has two pair here, he'll fold, and if he has a higher set, he will certainly comtemplate folding - it definitely wouldn't be an automatic call for him either. So, you may get a call from 98, likely get a fold from an overpair, you'll get a fold from two pair, and you're running scared from 10-8 (unlikely). If he does have that bigger set, it's 50/50 on whether he makes that call.

In this sceanrio, I shove and expect to take down the pot without showdown.

Two things.

1. I am curious what your exact reasoning was for shoving. We both ended up with shoving but different reasons for doing so.

2. If you took a more conventional line such as leading this flop (which is my default due to where the fishy player is between you two), how are you reacting to the inevitable flop raise?

@mark82880,

To be honest, 300BB is pretty damn deep for most players to discuss on this forum.

With that said, I really like villain's raise...putting you to a stack decision and forcing you to play your hand faced up.

I am not sure what I would do, since I rarely tangle with anyone at 300BB deep. 200BB is about as deep as I go, and where I play, there's a 100BB betting cap.

Congrat on sucking out, but I don't know if I would stack off with 6/6 in the same spot. Pretty marginal to risk 300BB when you have only risked about 60 so far.

1. Basically I think Villain's 3bet on the flop should be profitable enough itself that I decided he was likely to be doing it at least wide enough to give me the equity to jam. I think my c/r looks like a good hand but a vulnerable one because I took the only line that eliminates the fish, and Villain is good enough to realize this and semi-bluff with equity, which basically means something involving an 8 in this spot (I don't think he ever has air or anything crazy like that). If you mean why did I jam instead of call, the answer is essentially position. I don't expect Villain to ever check back the turn (as I've said) but it doesn't mean I'm right and he'll certainly be able to if he wants which basically means I'd be letting him play perfectly, which is silly since - if my range analysis is right (not that it necessarily was) - I've got the necessary equity to shippity-do-da at this point anyway.

2. If I lead and he raises I'm calling (definitely not 3betting) and then probably c/cing turn c/fing river or something like that. Honestly I'm not sure. Would depend on how the board ran out, betsizing, physical reads, w/e.

So you where crushed on the flop, surprised you made that move.

What's the max buyin?

Do you normally play 300bbs deep?

You run lucky that's great, sometimes its better to be lucky then good.

No need to beat your chest with weak comments like the one above.

This hand should be titled "How Not To Play A Set 300bbs Deep".

If your opponent was not a LAG and instead weak tight, then your play is warranted. Other wise its just a bone head move.

I think you should've donked flop for $85 to $90.

Reasons: 1)Good villain will not be c-betting this board without connecting with somehow. It is not a good board to c-bet, especially with a fish in their. There is a chance that it gets checked around and we don't want to miss out on value. 2) c/r prevents fish from calling with his junk. 3) It's hard to get value from a lot of worse hands when you c/r against a good opponent here. I doubt your getting value from many over pairs and only very good value hands continue here.

My plan is to keep barreling after I donk if I get called. Getting raised sucks, but I would call since 3-betting with this hand is overrepresenting against a good player and folding is lol.

As played, I am leaning towards the fold. I forgot if there was a flush draw, but if there is no flush draw, I am inclined to fold this OOP.

You are not right about having 45% equity. First of all, I doubt that an online player (regardless of how lag) is isolating a fish with offsuit connectors. Even if he is, i don't think villain is always doing this with the pair + OESD given that it's unlikely that hero's perceived range has many draws (due to card cancellation) and the size of the c/r. remember, hero's perceived range is super strong. there aren't many good c/r hands in this spot other than strong draws and sets/two pairs. so, villain isn't always doing this with combo draws since he's not trying to fold out sets.

P Pretty sure that's the same as titling it "I suck at poker." and summarizing my play as "I'm a monkey... but a lucky one." I definitely don't think I played this hand well (at all), but I did think the situation was sufficient to warrant seeking other people's perspectives.

Fwiw, I think the play is infinitely better against a LAG than somebody who is weak/tight and couldn't possibly be 3betting worse than bottom set, although they're probably never opening a hand that connects with this board for 9x from the CO anyway, so it's probably moot.

As to the other stuff.. I like to play deep when the games allow it because I think it's more challenging/interesting + I'm sufficiently rolled for the stakes I enjoy/feel comfortable playing (and don't play for a living) so I can afford the hits when I do dumb stuff and get crushed for it (which happens regularly, of course). I'd never buy in for less than 100bb and generally I won't sit in games that feature more than 1 or 2 people playing under like 80bbs. Games I've played in at 2/5 that cap buy in higher have been anywhere from 200-500bb and the amount I'd buy in for would depend on what the stacks on the table looked like and who was sitting behind them. Had I just sat table in OP, for example, Villain 2 is certainly not somebody I would have been looking to cover, while Villain 1 would have been.

I think this is right and why I was wondering if my perception at the time of Villain's range wasn't overly optimistic (and hence why my decision to ship was bad).

For ship to be any good Villain has to have the pr+oesds *and* he has to be playing them like this 100% of the time. Given dynamics and Villain it was easy enough to convince myself that he could be playing back at me with a range I could beat, but I'm just not sure that's realistic.

Great discussion ITT.

Villain's holding surprises me, and shows me I don't know much about playing deep stacked and isolating fish. Rest looked much as I would have expected given OP's description. I would have estimated villain's range as 99,77,T8s,98s,98o, against which you are almost flipping. If he's willing to play 85s pre like that, I don't think we can take the semi-bluffs out of his flop range, so I think the equity is still there.

i pretty much knew villain had str8 just by you making comments like this and i think other competent posters will realize this as well and jump on the bandwagon of saying its an easy fold but in reality if they were in the same spot they would of probably done the same thing

folding a set when u have a crazy image vs another crazy image player is a very hard thing to do

Been thinking about this hand a lot, messing around with poker stove, and I actually think this becomes a fold as played.

I had two reasons for never folding the flop. The first was your image and how a good villain can try to use that against you. The problem is, I think I got too caught up in your image and didnt give enough credit to the other factors. I just instantly assumed that because youve shown you can make moves, then the villain will always make plays back at you. Now Im not so sure that to be the case, not on this board and not this deep. Especially when youre doing this into two people. From villains PoV, it actually probably makes a lot more sense to flat with hands like 88, 98, 87 when you c/r here. He cant think youre doing this light with the fish in the middle. So if he puts you on a strong range, he then has to give you enough credit to think he can push you off that range. And as I said before, competent villains dont try to get other people to fold sets.

The second reason was admittedly pretty poor. Just from a theory PoV, I hate the idea of c/r-ing this flop and then folding to a 3b. If I was to c/r here, its with the intention of playing for stacks. But now I dont believe its really that simple when so deep.

I guess I dont play around with poker stove enough because it was pretty surprising to me to see that against his value range, we went from a 22% dog with 66 to around a 41.5% dog with 77. Of course by his value range I mean zero semi bluffs, only sets and straights. I didnt even give him two pair because I would be pretty shocked for him to play two pair like this. I guess maybe 97, but I think that some of the combos for that should be discounted.

I guess that leads to the last part of this, could you fold 77 here? And at what stack size does shoving 66 here become wrong in a case like this? At 100 BB its clearly never a fold, same thing most likely applies to 150 or even 200 I would think.

OP, did you have hands like 85s in his preflop range? I think I'm folding 66 pre in the BB, especially for 9x bb raises, if so. Maybe not otherwise but I'm not sure flatting 66 pre is amazing here...I feel like folding>3-betting>calling.

Agreed that c/ring flop with bottom set and then folding to a 3bet is just terrible from a theory pov, although I think the conclusion is "don't c/r" not "stack off when you do". I do think this hand demostrates how horrible my c/r was, which is probably something worth considering since I suspect a lot of people aren't used to playing this deep and haven't thought about why we can't just c/r get it in even with a hand as strong as our in the absolute sense. It also emphasizes the importance of having a plan (which I admittedly did not), imo.

I don't think I could ever fold middle set here, and certainly not better. Even if Villain doesn't take this line with bottom set or play 98o, we'd be 45% against his range, if we include 66 we're 52%, and if we include both those hands we're 58% against his range and it becomes a snap jam.

In this spot if we were any deeper, I think I would (should?) have folded. My equity is pretty marginall as it was, and if we tossed another 50bb on his stack I think this becomes spew even with the optimistic assessment that he's playing all his 88 and 98s combos like this. Anything like 200bb or less and w/e... I have a set facing a flop 3bet from somebody who isn't a nit or a station and I'm geting 1.67:1 or better on my shove depending on how you mess with the stack sizes.