I appreciate the feedback. just to clarify I was calling on a blank turn.

Sorry that I think you have leaks you need to fix. I thought pointing them out was worth it since the thread basically became a mirrion pages of debate about 3-betting deep.

I like your threads, they do have some wild hands. I still hate that you turned a flop shove into a call flop/call any turn line.

Where you see brag I see self-effacing joke.

Guess you took what I had to say pretty personally.

Where you mentioned "OP could be leveling us" is what set me off man. Im fine with you ripping my thinking and strategy to threads. That's part of asking a poker "community" for advice. Wouldn't make sense to get angry with people who give me constructive criticism. Would make sense for me to be very pissed when people accuse me of making up hands or "leveling" as you passive aggressively implied.

Why would I do that poppa? my life is poker. I play a lot, I have a lot of hands where I feel like I didn't play them optimally so I seek advice on them. If I were to intentionally make hands up, that's basically calling me a loser with no life. Who's going to take being accused of lying not personally?

I'm skeptical of your claim you were calling the turn given what else you've said in this thread

ok?

Exactly!

I was planning on calling the turn, too much money out there to fold. too many cards to come that would've nutted my hand. easy call OTT

cool. I read too much into your concern that he held KK. You'd need better than 34.5% equity to call a blank turn shove, and your equity against KK would've been 23%, your equity against other sample V hands:
AK 27%,
AA 27%
Kx(no s) 34%
QQ 34%
Kxs 32%
JT 38%
9s8s 87%
AQ 60%

I can certainly understand that people find it hard to believe you would have called off a shove on a brick turn OP.

When you obviously had a hard time pulling the shovetrigger on the flop with 2 cards to come and a 12 outs draw to the nutz- why should we believe that you would be capable of calling off your stack on the turn with just one card left? That just dont make any sense.

What i personally think would happen if the turn bricks for you and villain shoves is that you would have sigh folded. Villain would have outplayed you with a bare gutshot in a massive pot OOP. Thats one of many reasons why a shove on the flop is the superior play in this spot: you simply avoid that villain is outplaying you on future streets and make you laydown the best hand.

Now i am not saying all this to berate you in any way OP, its just a reminder that its alot to learn from this hand and alot of food for thought.

Sent from my LG-D855 using 2+2 Forums

I was never planning on folding at any point in this hand. was only debating whether to call or shove OTF

As one who has to fight off weak-tight instincts I can certainly relate to Gilmour's point. Many times in the past I've had a plan to call down a LAG and later lost my nerve, playing a hand in a nut-worst fashion. And in this hand, not all blank turns are created equal. Is a 9 or a T a blank?

It's cool, man...although I'd much rather be called a liar than passive-aggressive.

I have been reading these forums much longer than I have been posting, and trust me, levels do occasionally happen here. OTOH, I sometimes see levels where they aren't. It's a leak. I am never going to claim to be leak-proof, or the best player.

That said, I really think everyone posting here has been trying to be constructive. Sometimes the criticism seems harsh or condescending but that's more a result of people with a wide range of skill level who don't know each other typing into the void. If you think this is tough you haven't been on the receiving end of a "fold pre, as played total abortion" blowoff.

I can't say that I've read all your posts in this forum or the others, but the ones I have read, the common themes have been 1) they're crazy/exciting hands that don't come up a lot, 2) they involve a lot of aggression from you resulting in situations where you have to make decisions you aren't comfortable with or make you second guess yourself (although other posters have felt they're easy decisions). Those two things almost guarantee that the advice you get is often going to run the opposite of your results. It makes for great discussion but sometimes the boring/losing hands make for better learning.

Glad you're here to learn and feel free to pick apart my threads too.much

So, totally non-condescending questions for you:

Do you see why the way you played flop on worked great this time but in general is a losing play? Why the line you chose to take is less optimal than shoving flop? Why your equity against the range V has on the flop diminishes significantly on the turn? Why your line works better if you had only flatted the flop?

What do you do if you hit an A on the turn and V shoves? What if he checks? What do you do if V checks a blank turn? Do you shove or try to peel a free card? If you peel and the river blanks and V shoves do you fold A high? These are questions that shouldn't ever come up.

Anyway, super interesting stuff has come up in this thread, and I wouldn't be reading it if I didn't like it. I 3! AQ 3 times in my last session just for you guys.

Show-off.

I didn't see this thread until it was pretty deep in the thick of things so I decided to not post.

There was a ton of good advice thrown about and definitely got me thinking more than usual on a Saturday morning before my first pot of coffee haha.

I agree with this

I even did it shallow from SB vs. a relatively loose-opening button raiser! MADNESS. And sort of dumb, except live reads were strong with that one.

but how much did you lose?

If you were going to call any turn, why not just push the flop? You're getting the money in when you can actually see your equity instead of just guessing.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Typo? I thought shoving was best move and my flat was wrong...?
5. Call
6. Tank 30 seconds and shove
7. Yes, folding A high

Sorry I called you passive aggressive. These hands, as bad as I play them, actually happen. Just trying to learn

Sorry, my bad, I meant flatting pre. Because to me if you're running a call/call line on flops like this that is more in sync with a flat pre.

Grunch

Any thoughts on why he opened to 70? I know it was straddled but 7x? From your previous example he made it larger with the weaker hand...would V fold QQ-JJ to a shove? Also would he follow up on the turn? If he bluffs the turn I would just call flop ship turn. I think jam flop can be okay of he folds anything lower than a K.

70 is a little big but 7x is not out of the ordinary live, although more unusual with a straddle. Since most weak players think in terms of absolute dollar value rather than pot size or effective stacks they tend to not adjust their sizing pre due to a straddle.

Chiming in late to this thread but I think villain's sizing is pretty standard pre. With a straddle and 4 limpers, there's ~$60 in the pot already. If villain was just opening against the straddle and the blinds, $35 or $40 would be more standard.

As for 3-betting vs. flatting PF, I personally am in the 3-betting camp. Against a player who is opening too wide, we exploit him by either 3-betting wider for value (if he plays back too much vs. 3-bets) or 3-betting a polarized range that includes a lot of bluffs (if he folds too much to 3-bets). This particular villain appears to defend too much vs. 3-bets, and we should absolutely want to get the pot HU vs. him. Yes, sometimes he will 4-bet, but he'll also flat a lot and we'll be in a spot with an SPR of 8 on the flop with the triumvirate of card, position and skill advantage, which is basically a dream spot this deep.

However, we have to be extremely comfortable playing this postflop in order for 3-betting to be best. If we're uncomfortable shipping in our stack post without the nuts, then we should take the lower variance route and just flat pre.

As played, flop is a clear shove, and vs. this guy, I'd be shipping much worse flops. With NFD + nut gutter, I'm fist-pumping and happy whether villain calls or folds.

Geez Rah way to sum 10 pages of discussion into 4 simple paragraphs and say it better than anybody did...