We already know the results... we 3-bet pre-flop, V doesn't fold, and we go to the flop with either 100BB or 200BB in the pot and around 600BB behind. We don't like the vast majority of flops - even those that give us TPTK, our most likely decent absolute value hand - and we become even less happy the majority of the times that the the pot grows even larger. Like, we're not gonna 3-bet AQ, get a pre-flop call from AJ, and then build and win a 1300BB pot (unless we have a very special read which we do not have here).

I called. Turn was offsuit J (nuts). He jams, I snap, he shows AQ offsuit! river 2 of spades. ship it. craziest hand of 2/5 ive ever played. so many strange dynamics to this hand just thought it would be great to post and get some feedback

just wondering, what if the turn bricked? I take it you'd fold to a jam by V?

Crazy free roll. Congrats on the ship, that is awesome.

In this very hand, I think V has around 1 PSB left on the turn. Let's say he does.

You happened to bink a nut card. Let's now say the turn was not such a nut card for you... the 2d. And V shoves. Are you folding? I assume you must be folding. You're getting 2:1, but you're nearly a 3:1 dog vs. AK and AA and nearly a 4:1 dog vs. KK.

There are just so many post-flop spots where you're getting owned because your 3-bet pre created a bad stack size, positional, and range strength dynamic for you, and, like I said, in many ways it undermined your positional advantage. This it isn't a post-flop problem. It's a pre-flop problem.

Again, what's your play on Qxx? V c-bets, you call, V shoves turn, pot is 600BB+. You're probably folding, and it's probably an OK fold. But in this very case, it would have sucked since you had a chop + free roll - it'd be a huge equity mistake in a large pot if you knew villain's exact hand. But it'd be very hard for you to call getting 2:1 when you could be drawing near dead to villain's value range on those flops. This is exactly what I mean when I say you give up your positional advantage - you are going to the flop with a specific hand that opens yourself up to getting owned on flops you miss and on flops you hit.

Finally, most likely you're calling 450 pre and then just folding to c-bets. You straight up whiff a lot. In this case (though for sure, these exact results are not necessarily indicative of the quality of your line), you would have been folding a chop on whiffed flops. Sometimes you're folding the best hand... in a 300BB pot (200BB to the flop, V bets 100BB, you fold).

In all honestly, in this entire thread, I have yet to see one very solid reason for 3-betting pre except for very generalized "villain is wide," "we're not nits!," "AQs is ahead of villain's range," etc. 3-betting pre so obviously creates a myriad of terrible post-flop dynamics for you when villain continues in any capacity - whether with a 4-bet or just with a call, and I expect him to continue in some capacity 100% of the time.

Jeeze, your posts are all over the place in this thread Willy, its impossible to keep a red line through this discussion with you because you are writing wall of text and absurdly amount of different scenarios and examples. I generally respect your thoughts, but in this thread i think you are borderline to being out of line when it comes to just keep writing and dont listening to any of your replies. I am gonna reply to some of the most important stuff to me:



1) What Bobman was talking about the way i understand him is the fact that we have position and is putting pressure on villain with 3 betting him preflop and that will be a losing strategy for villain if he keeps station our 3 bets OOP with a weak range. Sure he can take alot of his garbage hands and keep station us OOP with alot of speculative hands, but that well give us benefits-not villain. Its not like because we are deep that villain can refuse to fold anything to our 3 bets and not lose money with that "strategy". You keep saying that we dont like the majority of flops: guess what, neither does our villain when he is in there with his weak range in a bloated 3 bet pot out of position.


2) You are talking about 600 BB+ pots like we are destined to stackoff everytime we 3 bet pre or even call a small 4 bet from villain. That is for sure not true and as i was discussing in my last answer to you we are in position and are often able to manouver our pots in the way that benfit our holdings and given equity. We can easily pot control one or more streets if we want, or even surrender the hand if we feel that would be appropriate. If we flop top pair on like A27 or Q24 board its great because villain would be in there with alot of weaker underpairs, draws and dominated top pairs due to him refusing to fold pre= giving us fat value postflop. Like other posters correctly have mentioned these kind of spots will be giving us a potenial to win alot of 100-200 BB pots with is some of the beaty of deepstack play against these kind of callingstations.


3) I have to make it clear that nobody up until this point has been talking about applying the same basics or thoughtprocess in 600BB+ pots like we do in 100 BB pots. You are fighting against strawmen big time in your posts that arent real Willy. Please stop doing that because it is making this debate more stupid that it needs to be, and its also ridicilous combined with lack of respect to underestimate posters like myself who has played countless of hours with stacks 1000 BB+ deep.


4) It seems like you are making a premise in this debate like we are facing a 4 bet everytime we 3 bet in this spot from villain, and that villain somehow is holding QQ+ everytime when he does. Majority of the time villain will just flat our 3 bet OOP and we are in a premium +EV spot to make money off this guy postflop when we play a strong range against him with position. We are setting ourself up to endless +EV scenarios postflop with this action. And IF we are facing a 4 bet we should be quite happy to call him in position, haven been demonstrated villains ability to 4 bet very light before. The problem in this hand is simply that OP is afraid to play a very big pot, and that doesent mean that the line taken in this hand isnt +EV. I think OP played this hand great up until he got doubts and possibly lost his heart on the flop. Shove flop and i think this hand was played close to perfect.


Edit: Just saw the results posted now and that villain was in there with AQ off bombing into us on the flop just shows that his range was wide 4 betting and a ship would have been superior on the flop fold equity+ pure hand equity.

If you're not comfortable doing this then why 3 bet in the first place? A shove here could fold out better hands depending on your table image and a fold makes your 3 bet pointless.

I feel like you have just justified a flat call of his raise to start with then you can flat ip or raise with better pot control thanthe situation your facing.

So you raise/call with ATo. The flop comes A95r. What is your plan? Or T95r. K98 with 2 suits. There are a ton of flops, and a very small percentage of them will give you better than one pair and none of your one pair hands are very playable.

Keep in mind that you have to defend something like 60-70% of your preflop calling range on the flop to a cbet to remain balanced. If you're talking about calling with lots of hands like ATo that will flop something playable in a deep 3bet pot much less than 50% of the time, it's hard to see how you will do that. And if you can't defend enough on the flop, you will lose so much money seeing flops and folding that you will never make it up when you flop gin every 20 hands.

It's true that any hand can make the nuts, but poker is still a game of probability. You're basically paying preflop for a ticket to the 600 BB lottery, and it matters a ton whether you have a 5% or a 10% chance of hitting the jackpot, and it matters a ton whether your opponent sets the price of the ticket at 10 or 20 BBs.

It doesn't sound like you are discounting AA or KK at all here willy, even though V made a huge overshove (4 bet) with AA and 4 bet about the same 2.25x raise with 76s (earlier) as he did here against the OP. I would give AA and KK to V MAYBE 10% of the time here, just based on OP's earlier observations and description. It looks like you're using worse case scenario to argue your position.

pre is good and having no 3b range would be a disaster. we obviously prefer not to face a 4b, but one of the reasons to include AQs in a 3b range is that it can very comfortably peel vs a 4b here

i prob just rip it in on the flop to fold out underpairs, but i think call/call has merit too if you think hes just blasting off with all his <AQhi

I don't see how V showing up with AQ means that he was also 4b wide.

If anything, we might conclude that we found the bottom of his range in this spot.

This:

Is still the best advice in the thread.

Found the bottom of his range Lapi with AQ off when we have seen him 4 betting with similar sizing earlier this sessons with 67?

I mean come on, cant believe that i even use my time on this anymore.

Must be really tilting that someone doesn't agree with you.

We don't know what was different between the time when he 4b 76s and this time.

AQo is a hand that is going to gain very little from 4betting here, and is basically a really standard call against someone who isnt a nit. because we know he chose to 4b with it, it makes it more likely that he is choosing to 4b basically all of his continuing range here, which we believe to be fairly wide based on the other reads provided. hence, we can draw the conclusion that based on the info we now have, he chose to 4b fairly wide. this is similar to a situation where someone bluffs the river with a hand that has a lot of sdv, and we can draw a pretty strong conclusion that they bluff way too much in that spot, whereas if they showed down the nut low, the evidence would be much weaker.

No, what is tilting me is that many posters in this thread keep refusing taking into account pure facts from what we have observed from villains game and keep talking about a 4 betting range consisting of QQ+ or that AQ off is at the bottom of his range. It just isnt true and its ****ing unreal that it should be that hard to understand it.

V 4b pre only 3 times in 6 hours.

Once with AA, lol standard.

Once with 76s, and we have no detailed info about that spot.

Once with AQo.

For someone who is "4b wide", how come he's only 4b w/o AA twice in 6 hours?

Unless I've missed it, he didn't say that V was 3b like crazy. He didn't say anything about how frequent there are 3b at the table.

E.g. we don't know if he has ever 3b/folded at this table.

Lol I want to sit at OP's table next time I'm at Foxwoods just to watch all the WILD AND CRAZY HANDS he gets himself into.

Much to add here but will do so in a bit.

big over shove to 3 bet.

raise size of just over 2x (2.25x actually) V's opponent complained about it, V said play the player.

At the time, we didn't know it was AQ, but since V didn't make a big over shove, can't we heavily discount AA and KK?

This is the 3rd 4b in 6 hours, one of which was "lol standard". How are you discounting anything?

Further, in the 76s hand, V had 130bb.

In this hand we have 600bb.

Why do you think in this hand V is going to overbet shove AA for 600bb?

Why does anyone think we have enough samples on which to base any decisions?

He had 187 bbs.

I know I'm inexperienced at live tables, but when is a 15x of the 3 bet standard with ANYTHING but KK or AA?

I apologize for not giving a drunk college aged kid credit for thinking about what he has done and how he has shown a huge bet sizing tell in the last 6 hrs. Must be my lack of experience again.

Tbf we naturally expect if he was playing with any thought his range for raising over limpers in a straddled pot is likely different to his opening range.

The reads are that he's a bit of a raise spazzo and he's been drinking/on a large heater. There's been multiple occurrences of this vs different villauns. We should trust the reads given by the OP and keep his range wide.

I think its important to note that this is not 640BB deep, its effectively 320BB deep

Final thoughts on this thread:

The argument about the 3-bet pre and stack depth has basically become a huge distraction. Gilmour and I have basically agreed about 85% ITT although he doesn't seem to think so.

I have never argued that there aren't great times to 3! with AQ. In the right situation I'd do it. This is definitely one of them if OP is prepared to follow through.

However, he wasn't. I'm a pretty nice guy so I'm not picking on him but OP has posted thinking ITT that is terrible. For example: he says he called the 4! and "put the V on KK" thinking that if he hits an A he has great implied odds because V will stack off with an underpair to the board. Then he doesn't want to shove with "A high" even though he's essentially crushed this flop against V's incredibly wide range as described...because somehow that range is now out the window?

So there's two lines to take. As played, one should have played itself--shove flop--and it didn't. Does this mean that 3! and then calling 4! is bad? In general, no. Clearly, for OP, yes, because he is not prepared to take the next step and his thinking is totally skewed.

These are leaks that have to be plugged before OP can utilize the advice given here. (And as someone who's read some of OP's other posts, the leaks are consistent throughout.) Him doing this because some smart guys argued about it on the intrawebz without plugging those leaks is like picking out furniture for a house with no foundation.

Maybe flatting pre is too nitty over all. But you can't argue that it's suboptimal for OP when there are other bigger problems with his game that need to be addressed before moving up to lines that lead to thinner/tougher spots.

And after reading OP's contributions to this thread, some of his other threads, and the results, I'm actually worried about two things:

1) that OP subconsciously thinks that the way he played it was actually the best way because he got ALL TEH MANIEZ by flatting the flop, hitting a freeroll on the turn, and then binking the nuts on the river and if he'd shoved on the flop maybe V would have found a fold.

2) that OP, who seems to only post hands that are completely insane in how they played out, might just be leveling us all a little bit.

No matter what, though, this has been a really engaging discussion and one that I thought about a lot last night while occasionally completely misplaying hands that somehow led to me winning $1400 pots.

A+ thread... interesting stuff, well thought out by everyone.

Couple of questions...

Can anyone elaborate more on the importance of the limpers, the potential of a 3-7 handed flop and how that should impact the decision to 3b?

Also, should the sizing of the 3b be under any scrutiny? 2.2x? or maybe 4x or 5x?

You seriously have to be kidding me with this. I don't (sub)consciously think I played this the best way at all. Wouldn't be starting a thread about it if I had all the answers and wasn't trying to improve my game. I love your passive aggressive remarks about not ragging on me, but pointing out the fact that everything I did in the hand was wrong and making jokes about me thinking im much better than I am.

I post hands that are interesting to me. not "dealt KK UTG what should I open to". Clearly people find them interesting as were on page 9 of a discussion about many aspects of my play/thinking. Horrible play according to you.

I don't deny that im trying to fix and improve my leaks constantly. I ask for advice because im trying to better myself. I haven't posted many hands but I can assure you I don't win every hand and there are certainly pots ive lost 500bb in but they haven't been coming up as of late so they haven't been posted.

You talk about being a "nice guy" and not "ragging on OP" yet you accuse me of 1. leveling people in a LLSNL thread , 2. bragging about winning a hand, like I actually care what a bunch of strangers think of my skill. 3. ripping my thinking/strategy to complete shreds in a condescending and arrogant mannor

Also, you winning casually mentioning winning $1400 its the saddest derail attempt/failed brag ive come across

This has been a great thread for many reasons. I appreciate that people has put so much thought and effort into their arguments.

Post-flop this hand could be example #1 in a book on when to semi-bluff. Yet, nearly 1/2 of the posters in this thread don't seem to think so. For some who say call, it isn't clear to me if they are folding or calling when Villain shoves a blank turn. I'd especially urge those planning to fold the turn to rethink their plan.

As I understand it, in game OP would've folded to a Villain shove on a blank turn. This was a terrible plan. I've made worse decisions many times, some of them at the poker table. Credit to OP for posting the hand and accepting feedback.