Andrew Song would have fold this and he would be right. He is a natural boss man.

a) read OP
b) you're giving villains way too much credit for knowing how to play poker, and it's costing you money - villains are showing up with two pair in this spot all the time. there's only six set combos out there. there are nine combos of top two alone! (plus four more top and bottom, plus four more bottom two, never mind the draws and spazzes with overpairs.)

I read it right the first time. I'm saying that getting your stack in 600 BB's deep plus here, against villian 1 is bad. If you re- raise, and or flat and ship any blank turn, do you think he's calling with worse? You think he's calling off his stack with J7? Does he really have J7? over pair? AJ Hearts?

Your plan to re-raise when it got back to you and fold to a shove was right.

I was basically replying to everyone who thinks this is just a basic cooler. It's not when you're playing live and this deep. you have to be able to fold bottom set in a deep live game.

If you can't you shouldn't play more than 200-300 BB's deep in my opinion.

the best advice that can come from this thread IMO is this.

Until you gain a lot of experience playing 300+bb deep, then you should restrict yourself from playing small pairs 77 and below vs players who cover you. Also, if you get into set situations with super deep villains, play them slower allowing villain to barrel off, rather than opening up the raising.

It is a catastrophe (not a cooler) to lose 400bb with say 444 to a higher set vs average villains. And it takes much time to get experience at these situations, which most live players simply do not have across the freakin board.

And as far as combos go, if we have 888 on J 8 6 board, there IS A BB NUMBER where if villain wants to get allin, he will have JJJ and only JJJ. Simple as that. I myself would even say that 400bb+ ish would be that number unless the villain is just totally unaware of others holdings.

So be careful in super deep pots. The dynamics change considerably when really deep. And in 1/2 games and most 2/5 games there just are not going to be hardly any players capable of handling the situations correctly. Im very careful in these spots, and you should be as well.

In really deep pots, NUTS MATTER. And when super super deep, thats what im trying to make in order to get allin. Everything else gets played pretty cautiously.

I get what you guys are saying.....super deep stack I usually play a lot better than short stack. Maybe I flipped this hand? Idk.

As far as the hand goes....what are you saying I should've folded on the flop?

I mean are you sure this isn't results orientated?

How many times when I call does he fold here? A lot

How many times when I shove does he fold or call with worse? A lot I assume.

How do I assume he has the nuts here with yet to act? I don't think I can. This isn't online....live players do some dumb things. People shove and call all day long with an array of combo draws two pairs.

And yes I put j7 in his range. If its suited. He's a lag who's been playing for 24hrs....I've seen him raise and fold already.

Say he's not in the hand and I get the same.two to shove and my read stands as draws and combos and random overs shoving. Then what?

I think this is key. If you flat and v1 shoves after all of that action, including your super strong flat, can't you fold with more confidence?

I am not saying shoving is wrong with a good read but I like the line where you flat a little more, as you have more complete information about the situation.

Making a mistakes with 600BB's plus is huge. If you were a live pro, a couple of mistakes like that in a year could seriously hurt your win-rate and even make you a losing player.

You don't see nearly that many hands live, so getting stacked for 600 BB's is something that may takes months to overcome.

Meanwhile, you have rent to pay, babies to feed, and hookers to take care of.

Labeling all live players bad and rationalizing that they will get it in with worse, is making your read with the wrong information.

I play live deep stacked poker a ton. Obviously this is a tough spot. I'm not sure I would have made the lay down, but I know that getting it in with bottom set on this board, with this action, on the flop is VERY dicey.

yes, nuts DO matter very deep. but only when your opponents recognize this and adhere to the idea and refuse to play pots without them. what percentage of 2/5 players do you think are ever folding bottom set on a non-straight flop? what percentage of 2/5 players are ever folding top two on the same? surely the first is miniscule and the second is small.

and of course, LAGgy vills are much more likely to be getting it in with two pair because they're so much closer to the top of their range because they have so much more bottom in their range and so many bluffs to balance out. they are trying to stack 'nits' who get stubborn with overpairs because of their (the LAG's) 'infuriating' style.

when you're this deep, reads and tilt-psychology play such a heavy role and because you see so few of these situations i question whether it's really relevant to analyze them in the construct of long-run EV because there are so few that there really is no long run. it might be better to take each situation on its own practical quirks and merits?

Most people are used to playing w 100 BB stacks. So, they aren't used to the different lines that are needed with deep stacks. Not saying you are one of these people.

But, I think there are a couple lines that are good here and make the had easier to play.

flat the flop, bet/fold lead 1/3 pot on the turn. Flat the flop, check and fold to a shove. This is a pretty easy fold, because people tend to play extremely straight forward when there are players that are all in and there is already a big pot.

This is also a spot where live tells of comfort level is important.

These 2 things contradict each other. I agree more with the last sentence.

There are a lot of bad live players, sure. But I do believe that many live players are good a recognizing when they are beat in big pots, when deep. When they get a big stack they are very fearful of losing it.

Just making blanket statements like "most live players will get it in with 2 pair here" is just rationalizing the fact that you want to call and don't want to lose the hand.

It's better to take the information you have in the moment and make a decision from there. Will this player get it in with J7 here? Or is it more likely he flatted with 77 or JJ to my early position raise?

allow me to clarify since there is a misunderstanding:

what i am saying is that because there are many poor live players, automatically taking an unexploitable line is non-optimal. make your read: is the player bad? could they get it in here with two pair? if so, then ship it. if the player is very good/very cautious, then we have to be careful. but if we are always auto-careful, we are losing a ton of value from bad players, and the point is that there are a lot of bad players, so we're losing A LOT of value.

in fact, i think that there are enough bad players that if you had to act the same way in this spot every time, you should always ship, because the 'nutty' players do not compose enough of the opponent-pool. but that's not what i'm advocating. i'm saying make a read and proceed accordingly.

and back to my very first post, his read was that vills were bad, so SHIP IT, SON, WOOT!

Well I'm starting to think I like my flat on the flop.


But I'm still chopey on the turn play....I'm pretty boggled there.

His flat now I think about it is pretty strong. Especially when my flat looks strong.

But on the other hand he's been playing wayyyy to long and I did witness some very odd maneuvers. Which makes me give him little credit.

Maybe this turn play of c/f or shoving is 100% read dependent at this point?

What about the fact that all in four way....against all these draws....even if I did hold the nuts....I'm looking at 52% at best to win? And with bottom set that's even smaller I presume?

this is a snap shove and you're only posting this because somebody oversetted you. you did nothing wrong.

Stop making generalizations and start treating each situation as a separate incident. Bad players get hands, don't pay them off 600 BB+ deep.

OP's read: "action on me. now my reads are that v1 was just raising my cbet maybe a set as well or tp.."

You can also ask yourself: Even though this player is bad, can he have a better hand than me right now? Blindly shoving money in this deep just because a player may or may not get it in with worse is not good poker.

If we are NEVER careful and just auto assume all bad players have the second second worse hand compared to ours every time we face a situation where we're getting our money in (did I say 600 BB's deep??), we are losing even more money!

poker is about making generalizations, because i don't know about you, but i don't have x-ray vision. you can't just "make a read" and know if you are ahead or behind. that's why we go through all this: to figure out if it is likely we are in a good spot or not. it is much more likely that we are in a good spot against a poor player.

crazy maniac monkeys sometimes hit sets. i'm still calling them down every time i see top pair, because in most cases, it's good enough that i end up winning a big pot.

similarly, bad players sometimes stack us here with oversets, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be getting it in with bottom set - because more often than they have an overset, they will not and we will have them crushed. obviously if there is some dead read this will change, but even the worst villains are trying very hard to keep us from knowing their hand. in a lot of cases the read you can get is "he thinks he's strong" or "he thinks he's not strong". if a villain sees both two-pair and a set as "strong" then the read doesn't mean much in this spot. bad villains aren't sophisticated about the difference between "strong" and "600 bb's strong". a good villain might be, so we use our information differently.

"v1 is lag asian guy whos been playing for about 24hrs and you can tell. hes been doing some weird things."

This is enough for you to stack off with 600BB with the third nut? No where did OP say this guy was a maniac or a horrible player. No where did he say he had a read about him stacking off light.

There's a pretty big disconnect that internet players have with understanding live players tendencies. yeah, they will stack off 100BB's or less with all sorts of ****, and gamble with flush draws, but when they get a big stack they tend to guard it very carefully. They certainly don't gamble as much or push small edges with one pair. I know this from years of experience of playing with "bad" players, and years of playing live deep stack poker.

I mean, villain 1 was sitting on a big stack after 24 hours of play after all. Short term I know, but still. Secondly, he played this particular hand perfectly, and stacked someone for over 600BB's. Doesn't sound horrible to me.

I hear what you're saying in general, and I respect what you have posted and don't disagree in a lot of instances, but NOT 600bbs deep. You just can't think like that when you flop the third nut 600 BB's deep.

We can agree to disagree I guess.

"- because more often than they have an overset, they will not and we will have them crushed."

I just don't see many hand combinations, on this board, given this action that agrees with this statement. I think more often than not, you're looking at JJ and 77....i'll say it again 600 BB deep.

Stop saying 600bb deep. He's 400bb deep. By saying doing some.weird things I'm implying he's not very good....he walked into this hand.

I think in most general cases this is a shove on the flop. His raise on the flop means nothing.

But If I flat and he calls then from here on out its all read dependent. "Weird things" means he's doing some stupid **** BC he's not thinking straight.

anyone who's been up for 24 hrs, nevermind concentrating on playing poker for that long, is bound to be exhausted and not thinking clearly...

I'm not folding there. take the cooler or beat.

I'm sorry, I don't know why I thought villain 1 had 3k. Disregard most of what I said. I would get it in, but i still would hate it.

so i'm curious, what number of bb's must be in play before we are game theoretically in a nuts-necessary situation? how many for 2nuts+ ?

i'm sure there is good math for this, has anyone done it that you know of? or are you just going by experience here?

I'm not sure. I would like to see some math on the subject. For me, it's just a matter of experience and knowing that getting stacked for 6 buy ins on one hand is probably not a good thing.

When playing live, I believe that reducing variance and marginal situations is a reasonable approach, because we don't see nearly as many hands. The prospect of running into a higher set may only happen once or twice in a year, if you get stacked for 4-6 buy ins its a lot of variance. There are so many spots in a live game, where you are practically printing money. I think you need to make a few big lay downs here and there because of all this.

There are a lot of players who specifically nut peddle deep stack live games, and they get away with it because people can't lay down the 3rd and 4th nut 400BB's deep +.

This, for sure. I'm pretty much getting it in in this spot in every situation, EXCEPT when a competent player (long session not withstanding) is that deep and has yet to act. Maybe a flat here, and see how v1 reacts would be ok too...not sure why everyone is worried about looking strong here. I think I'd flat, and if v1 folds, obv that's great. If he calls, I re-assess on turn. If he shoves, I'm out.

I think that I'm good in this spot too often to just let it go, especially given how much is currently in the pot before I act. I'm willing to risk my $600 (or whatever it was) to get what is it, about 3:1 at this point? I think I'm good here way more than 1 times in 3.

NOTE: I'm not all that great of a plalyer, so I'm posting this to get feedback as much as give it.

Fold, live to fight another day.