Call... and then call again on the turn.

"Villain has 4-bet for value and folded to a 5 bet several times".... ummm....uhh...ummm... I can't think of any spot I have ever 4 bet for value and then folded to a 5 bet.

This guy has spew/spaz/bluff in his range WAAAYYYY more than a full house.

(btw - complete grunch... so no idea if this has already been posted)

edit: I see I mis read original post .. he 5 bet for value and folded to a 4 bet once... still confused, but I read it wrong.

I don't see why we're limiting his range to 55 or KT. I think it could he any 10. If villain has a 10 he probably doesn't put you on the case 10 and would hope you stack off with an overpair. I would yet it in here a huge majority of the time.

I agree with dg with this 100%. Id think AT, KT and 55, maybe a rare T5 take this line. I also don't play 2/5 so this is just above my play, but with all the villain notes from the OP it just sounds like he has a solid read on the table and is aware of the strength that hero has displayed. As for the players left to act, it seems like such a strong play on his part. If you can find a fold, fold... I sure as hell couldn't though :/

This hand below was a big step towards this level of play for me, when the guy reached for 3b chips I knew exactly how the rest of the hand would play out. I'm not on that level yet but trying to get there. Thanks for the knowledge.

So you believe that competent 2/5nl players would stack off $1,000 in a $110 pot with AA/KK on a T T 5 board that started off multiway????

Just to play devil's advocate for a minute, if Villain actually believes we might have AA/KK and might fold it to this bet, doesn't that make this a sick spot for a bluff?

I mean, I don't know what's in Villain's head and how he views us, but it's entirely possible that Villain is thinking, "I have a competent player who's betting into this field when it's hard for someone else to call--I can rebluff him and he'll fold almost anything, including an overpair if I make it big enough, because he rarely has a ten but I easily could".

I mean, in general it is virtually impossible that we are betting for value against Tx, right? We are almost at the top of our range here but Villain doesn't know this.

Also, just a little semantic nit-picking--this bet is not 3 times the pot. It's 5/3 times the pot. Hero is being asked to call 250, and the pot minus Villain's bet is about 150. We are getting 8:5 on a call, not 4:3 like a three-times-pot bet would offer us.

When V made this bet, there were still two players to act behind the hero, that makes the chance of him bluffing almost zero, barring a detailed description of V2 and V3 donking every time they hit.

I think the above is a significant factor when we are playing Level 3 against another villain who is Level 3.

Not many villains at 2/5nl are capable of purposefully taking a bluff line when they put us on an overpair on this board. Sure, away from the table or if they are not in the hand they can fantasize about it. But when push comes to shove and they are actually in this spot with $1k in chips behind, 80% of villains just don't have the brains to think about it and out of the 20% that do, 80% of those don't have the cajones to actually do it.

That is how I see spots like this. In the past, one of my biggest leaks was leveling myself in these spots thinking, "Villain thinks that I think that he thinks..." and then I'd convince myself that V was on some sick Super Saiyain Black Belt 4th level bluff when in reality, V had the nuts...

This situation could very well be 3rd level, V puts us on AA/KK or even puts us on JT or QT and thinks, "If I repop hero on this flop I know he will lay it down..." but imo that is rare and OP didn't indicate that they had this level of history...

But it is always a possibility and would definitely make this spot even more interesting. It would also mean we'd have to call so Villain can rebluff us again on turn and river

thx for the correction

Lol folding

I think a lot of live players are flatting with 55 here...that could get me laughed out of the building but I also don't think it's impossible the guy is making the out of line bet because he knows his own image and perhaps feels that he can get folds out of our hero because he bought in short. I guess I'm thinking V could make a bluff here to attack Hero's profit.

A little outside the box I know. Also, I think finding a fold here is almost impossible, which has been said

Why cant QQ or JJ be some part of villains range?

Have u seen villain who u label a tag reg call per with suited junk like T5ss?

Cont...

After the V raised to $300, he finished his short conversation with the player beside him and was acting very casual. Hero tanked for 5 extra seconds and asked V "why so big?" V shrugged shoulders and said "I don't know". V's didn't seem to concerned with the board (analyzing it to figure out what I could have). Hero tanked some more. V's demeanor was very relaxed, he was looking around the table then back at hero then to his phone, (I guess he just assumed I would fold and wasn't worrying) I felt like V's demeanor was sincere. Hero tanked for 30ish seconds then asked, "would you check the turn if I called?" V said "no, I'm prolly shoving the turn." Hero tanked for awhile until a few players stood up and TIME was called. I had 45 seconds to act and Hero figgited with cards as if getting ready to fold, hero asked, "would you want to check it down if I called", again V said, "no, I'm shoving". With only 15 sec left to act, I almost called out of frustration, but then turned over my hand but didn't fold. You wouldn't believe how big V's eyes got and how quickly he started acting nervous, I mean a really bad job of ACTING nervous.
Get this, after the floor said time is up, your hand is dead, the V shoot up and said, "wait, let him call if he wants."

Time killed my hand but I was going to fold anyway and V turned over 55.

I immediately cashed out. Honestly, I was way more frustrated than pleased with my play. That was one of my first times really tanking and talking to a V, usually I quickly make a decision based on odds, ranges, fold equity. And its no sweat off my back if I get coolered. I guess I got lucky, but I'm not sure how? btw, I am definitely one of those go big or go home players so I can't fold 2nd-4th nuts, which is why I felt like I got lucky here. Hopefully, I just discovered how to soulread

Any advice on soulreading?

I think you should have only shown the T, otherwise, in the off-chance he doesn't have 55, he can easily fold if his reaction reveals his hand.

I am just baffled that anyone could even think about folding, and I'm a huge nit.

You realize this is: preflop raise, flop trips with ace kicker, cbet, and a single raise right?

I mean, I almost just don't believe this is a real hand and a huge level.

The decision to fold here is almost entirely based off V1s description as a highly competent TAG. As stated earlier by dgi, it's a snap call against any bad/mediocre player.

The out of character bet by V1 combined with the mid-conversation speculative call (largely PPs or BWs) leans towards 55 almost exclusively since he would NEVER make this play with a draw, and would want to give himself room to b/f with KT-.

Yes, a lot of players would flat 55 here, but I wouldn't. If I had a confident read Hero had a Ten, then I'm jamming because no one folds trips as evident by all the responses in this thread and this is 2+2 for crying out loud. And even among us thinking players 95% of the responses in this thread have been to snap shove...

The answer in poker is and should always be "It depends". If you have read my posts throughout this thread they have been pretty consistent, no wavering.

There are more than enough clues to piece this together.

#1 Villain competency
#2 Size of Hero's bet
#3 Size of the pot
#4 Eff stacks behind, i.e. $1k

And this ties in perfectly to my above responses. If villain is competent then there is no way in hell, absolutely no way in hell he is ever overbetting us with JJ/QQ in this spot like ever. That makes no sense whatsoever unless we are playing some Level 3 poker and have tons of history with villain and that is not the case.


One of my biggest lessons I've learned over the past 18 months to 24 months is that in 2/5nl, it is rare, very very rare to for villains to play for $1k in relatively initial small pots without the stone cold nuts or near nuts.

Think about it. You spend all day grinding your $300 - $500 buy-in up to $1k and you think most villains are going to be itching to stack off $1k in what starts off as a $60 pot without the near nuts???

There is too much "one size fits all" advice in this thread and if we are going to crush the game we have got to get over that kind of knee jerk reaction.

If you play this hand the same against nits, donks, maniacs, aggros, thinking players, weak-tight passive villains... then you have a serious leak and you just aren't adjusting properly.

Against a donk or rec fish, sure we can get it in. Against a "competent" reg-TAG as described by OP, we can't.

If there is a take away from this post, it needs to be the ranges we are willing to assign a "competent" player in spots like this. I mean, seriously, thinking that a competent villain is going to play for $1k stacks when the pot started out as $60 with JT, QT, flush draws, air balls, JJ/QQ is just insane. Even KT is a stretch.

We have to rise above our wishful thoughts. Of course it would be great if V stacks off here with KT, QT, JT because obviously those are hands we beat. And we don't want to acknowledge that V can have 55 here so we want to dismiss it as "unlikely".

But all the evidence and clues point to 55.

Against a donk, maniac, rec-fish, or aggro I easily go broke here. No question about that because their ranges will include weaker tens and even flush draws.

But against a nit, mouse, MUBsy player, or competent villain there is enough clues here for us to find a fold.

Shove or fold. If he's a TAG, 105 isn't in his range here and he should be folding offsuit Broadways. That leaves 55,a10s,k10s,q10s, and j10s. I don't think he does this with j10 or q10 so the question is can he do this wih k10 or a10? If he's not the type to overplay hands here then this is a fold. Even against a range of 55,a10s,k10s u are still a 40% underdog. If he truly is a competent player here, he is only doing this with 55 or a10. U both are 200bb deep and this is a fold but 100bb deep and I get it in all day. Dgi explained it perfectly.....

Just chiming in because nobody ITT actually convinces themselves to fold in game OTF, give me a break. Call flop, if he shoves turn then decide to do your soul reading.

This does not make sense why would a "competent" villain show his 55 after you fold. I would think villain would want to keep hero guessing. Also, I would think a "competent" villain would remain quiet and not engage in a conversation with hero while hero is tanking.

This is a really good fold and I'm not sure I could do it in-game. I would be very worried once he started giving the speech.

Do not show your hand. You have 700$ back. Once you expose your hand hurry up and fold as that is now our only option.

This is a really good fold OP and one I probably can't make 99 percent of the time in game, which is why I'm stuck in quicksand as a player.

I think, for sure, I call the flop raise and then see what happens on the turn.

The speech, though, was pretty convincing. I never ask anyone to check down a hand. Ever. I'm there to maximize money.

He should have just kept his mouth shut and perhaps you would have called. But when he says he is shoving the turn it kind of makes his hand seem that much stronger. Like, he just displays so much confidence with that statement: 'I don't care what the turn is. My hand is a monster. I am shoving.'

Good fold OP. Real good.

1) I think this is a massive level.

2) in the small chance this is genuine I don't really get the 'call flop, re evaluate turn' brigade. Does anything in villains description suggest he isn't bombing the turn. Disregarding our miracle cards, that leaves us in the same spot on the flop, minus $250 cheese. I think I would find a fold here. Table image is vital. Sick spot for Hero, it's so so close. But a crying fold is the ticket.

3) Doubt competent villain would show 5/5 or tell you his action on turn. Hence why I think it's a level. NH OP.

The more I think about it the more all of this makes sense. It's actually something I've never considered (overbetting the nuts here). Happy to have expanded my horizons already today!

Good fold, I guess. However, will you relish your decision too much and manufacture future folds when you smash a range?