I don't have any students. I get paid by the owner and operator. He plays way higher stakes than $1/$2. He must have bad judgement though right?

And you called me a liar when I posted my winrate. So we can just part ways here.

You go back to believing you know how to play poker. And i'll go back to studying.

It’s really funny that people talk **** on GTO/PIO when it doesnt even apply in this spot, these are just not very good pros who don’t understand cbet sizes and are simply copying GTO bet sizings & trying to be cool.

It’s funny because this is not even a gto bet sizing. Solvers were NOT made for multiway pots, and applying them to live is extremely bad for the most part because the vast majority of pots go multiway. It’s good for 3b pots and HU pots but HU pots come rarely. Most people who think they’re using GTO or whatever properly, especially live, are not even using it properly and have their heads up in the clouds.

And i have not run a SIM on this expect board texture but i am mostly confident this board prefers a bigger sizing. Not only theoretically but as stated before presumably against fish, $30 is just extremely lol

Also kinda shows you how low the ceiling can be for regs if you got two 2/5 pros saying nonsense like this

Yeah, he plays in real soft games.

It’s funny because im sure he’s never seen someone employ a proper GTO strat and adjust accordingly to dynamics, yet claims that the “exploitative” strategy far trumps the theoretical one.

Well yeah, no ****. Using PIO frequencies for live or almost any online game isn’t going to net you the highest EV. Thanks, Sherlock.

The people who he thinks are using GTO strategies are simply copycats, misapplying it, and from what I’ve seen dont know what they’re doing. He thinks that’s GTO lol. Im sure most of the people who he thinks are trying to use a GTO strat have never even opened a solver. Overbetting 2x pot with 7 high vs the BB for example on that turn is ******ed, not GTO approved since it’s multiway, and dubiously something PIO would do even when it’s heads up. 99.8% of the people who could use it properly and know how to adjust wouldnt be playing in his games anyway, so guess you cant blame him there

People are giving it a bad name, but what can you do lol. I do suppose it’s better this way for a number of reasons.

Betting $30 is fine, and probably better than $60 on this specific board. You have a hand that is unlikely to improve and if you find an ace, you may run into the nuts with any significant action. There are a lot of turn cards that you are going to have to wind up checking back, make a decision facing a lead (where your hand will now be relatively face up if you just call a lead), and now you have a bloated pot where all V's in the hand are pretty much uncapped.

Example: H bets $60, two V's call, turn is Tx. Now what?
Example 2: H bets $60, everyone calls, turn is 9x. Now what?

In both of these scenarios, the pot has gotten so big that your choice on the turn is pretty much between shove and pray or shut it down and hope for a safe river because you don't really have any "in between" bet size that both prices out draws and gets value from worse hands, and you're going to get c/r on the turn a lot. So you become stuck making a full stack decision on the turn with just TPTK and no redraw. SPR is too high to be getting it in with top pair and feeling good about it.

If you bet $30 and the same scenarios above happen, you have a lot more options on the turn. FWIW, I agree with your friends that $30 is a better size than $60 in a 4-way pot. In a heads up pot, you can get calls from hands like JT/QT/AJ/AT/8xs/etc that may not call in a multiway pot with action in between, so you can go larger as you have more bluffs. When you go $60 into $80 4 ways on KJ8ss, chances are you have little to no bluffs. Do you want the worse hands to call and get more value or do you want them to fold and take down the pot?

Ask yourself this - what hands in my range am I betting 3/4 pot on this flop 4 ways? Odds are the answer is KQ+, AsQx, FDs, and maybe QsTx. That's a lot of value and not many bluffs since you may not even be raising hands like QsTx and 56ss. How much wider is your range betting smaller?

Yeah I was watching the Triton Event and seeing Linus apply GTO to a bunch of different spots that almost no one knows how to play optimally. It was so fun to watch someone that is a master of their craft.

I mean most people don't even know their own ranges. It probably took me about a million hands of poker to realize I was awful.

I think a lot of people just assume GTO play is tight play. And that couldn't be further from the truth.

Oh well, poker is alive and well!

+1

Viral dropping knowledge bombs ITT...

I haven't done much work with Monker but the little work I have seen prefers smaller sizing multi-way, most likely for the reasons Viral stated earlier. I'd have to do alot more work to see if that was consistent across alot of flops, but it does seem intuitive. Also against rec stations we can go bigger as an exploit with our strong value hands (sets, two pair) and only bet smaller with our weaker value hands and the few bluffs we have

also kind of shows why poker is dead online at the highest stakes the edges are so razor thin...for example in Linus hands the hand against Steve O'Dwyer both played the hand perfect from a GTO perspective. in the one where Linus value bets 2x and then bluff 3-bet shoves with the 2x he IMO is exploiting a spot he feels in underbluffed and that he thinks Greenwood will overfold as PIO isn't bluffing with his holding, this theory may be true as I think the solver wanted Greenwood to call with his exact combo but since the population is underbluffing its prob a good fold.

Sorry sixsevenoff, you have a nice thread going on here except for the massive dick swinging by others. Everybody knock that off or I'm going to have to start infracting and locking this thread.

Betting $30 will get most under pairs and air to fold

Betting $60 will get more added folds from gut shots and 8x TT and 99

I think Jx+ will call any bet under $80 at least once.

I personally like a different bet size than both of these. I like half pot here or something like $45. It should accomplish a fair in-between of both the $30 and $60 and thin the field.

I would call a check-raise and probably give up if the turn brings a spade.

This is the stupidest argument ever.

If you win a lot you must play in soft games.
If a player isnt doing well, he only "thinks" hes playing GTO but is misapplying it.
If you win a lot but dont play by theory you are just running hot
If your win rate is subpar..."yeah but my games are tougher than yours"


I have news for everyone. The games are pretty much the same everywhere in the entire US of A. There are soft tables that pop up if more than the avg number of fish happen to be at the same table. There are tougher tables for the opposite reason.

There are not regions of the Country where the games are drastically tougher or drastically softer. If it makes you feel better about yourself to think that, then be my guest but Ive played in 40 different rooms in 13 states in the past 4 years and I haven't found anything drastically different about any place except for L.A (which I do believe is the biggest donk fest Ive ever seen. Others who play there may or may not disagree).

I wont even try to say that I understand poker theory or GTO play beyond the basics, but I do very well by exploiting the hell out of people playing as high as 5/10. Maybe I would do even better if I studied theory but there's a ceiling in how much can be won at a poker table.

What I know for a fact is that the guys who are obviously former online players and trying to play GTOish (whether they are doing it correctly or not) would increase their win rates significantly if they got the faces out of their phones, socialized at the table and got reads on people instead of playing every hand based on the texture of the board with no regards to who is in the hand with them. Most hands should be played totally differently based on who is in the hand. That is more important than the actual cards or texture of the board.

PS..I never said the guy who bet 2x the pot with 7 high was playing GTO. I said those over bets are trash or a draw. No matter what a solver says people should be doing.
There's probably only 1% of players who even know what a solver is and the ones Ive heard use that word, are not good players so they clearly dont know how to use a solver correctly. The one guy that I know who is an above avg player and has solver software sometimes runs HHs thru it and tells me what its recommendations are and the results are laughable for live poker.

As for the hand...betting $30, betting $60 and checking are all good options. It depends on the players in the hand. Your image...and other factors. If you think only 1 of those options is correct and mandatory, you are lost.

Fyi that wasn’t an argument, I was simply poking fun because clearly you get incredibly offended whenever people claim you play in incredibly soft games, whether it’s true or not. Quite a long essay you wrote there.

Thanks Jbuz.

This is the second best one pair hand we can have. This also isnt a spot where we are not going to be betting polarized into 3 opponents. Get some value, his sizing is good.

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Truth...like it or not..

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*we are not going to be betting polarized into 3 opponents

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To me this is a very specific spot where EV of betting is likely increased as LJ pfr when the callers are the btn and the blinds. Additionally, a larger sizing actually have it's advantages such as getting things HU often IP and more often winning the pot now with hands that aren't always as strong AK. Had this gone UTG open w 3 callers from any spot, check all day. Whether this is all true on paper is debatable for sure, but people get real loose with their calls here, so I consider betting a much firmer punishment/pot-winning strat than anything else - again, specific to this case.

Suppose we opened AdKd in the LJ for $20 and only BTN called. The pot is $47 before rake. The flop comes KsJs8h.

We have flopped TPTK on a very wet board. We have the nut advantage in that we have KK, JJ, and 88 in our range, while the villain can only have 88; but the villain has all the straight draws and flush draws as well as KJ.

We should definitely be betting AhKh here, and I think the right size is something like 3/4 pot, so in the ballpark of $35.

What changes when we add more players, in the SB and BB?

Our equity goes down, because those players, too, have ranges that include hands like 88, and the straight and flush draws, and even more two pair hands than the BTN. We still have the nut advantage, but TPTK is worth dramatically less than in the head-up case.

One way to think about it: Think of our hand as AdKdXY on a KsJs8h board in a pot-limit Omaha game. We have TPTK, but very little backup. The field players collectively can hold the equivalent of a big wrap together with a nut flush draw. They don't necessarily, but they can. Our hand is not in great shape.

But we aren't playing Omaha, we are playing two-card hold'em. A bet may get some folds from some of the hands that can hit against us. We aren't going to get folds from the strong contenders no matter how much we bet, but we can fold out mediocre hands and clean up a few outs to improve our equity.

If we bet, that bet is not going to get through everyone. A bet is not going to fold out the biggest threats.

A bet of a particular size has a corresponding required fold equity, the percentage of the time it needs to take the pot down to break even on its own, regardless on hand strength. If our expected fold equity is small, our bet size should be small, also.

Our betting range is going to be condensed ("merged") and value-heavy. Our bet size should be small when we bet.

This is why I chose betting $30 in the poll.

I would rank the choices bet $30 > check >>> bet $60.

Alan: this is excellent stuff. But I think we have a lot of FE here. It's been checked out of the blinds, the BTN is behind us and can be wide here. If we bet 30, every draw and gutterball will daisy-chain call behind us. I'd rather check than bet small.

Every decent draw is going to call any bet including every FD and every OESD. Every top pair is going to call. Some of the people in the hand will call with 2PTK. There are a gigantic amount of combos of hands that are going to call where we are ahead which we likely are right now. Ya if we bet 30 bucks here we are going to get "value" from a gutshot that will maybe call but that creates a scenario where 789TJQA is a scare card for our hand. I dont want 86/JT/Q9 type hands coming along. Checking the flop is giving up.

If we are beat we will find out after our cbet since someone is going to raise us since no one at LLsNL slow plays 2p+ on such a draw heavy board. Get max value for that HUGE range of hands thats going to call us on the flop that we beat. We bet pot and get 2 callers and a blank rolls off thats $160 in my pocket most of you aren't getting. If a bad card rolls off I charged draws the max instead of pricing everything in.

As Amanaplan said, we can also get this HU and have actual reads on the player we are against which allows us maneuverability later on in the hand as well.

(Ya I was a prick earlier but I am tired of these waste of space zero read hands where OP thinks hes still on the computer and we should be playing like robots IRL)

So you think we should "bet to find out where we're at"???

No Amigo, I think we should bet in good position for equity denial against capped ranges. If we were first to act, I would probably Check or sometimes bet 30 like you’re suggesting, depending on the Villains.

I know at least 10 guys in my player pool that I play with at least 2-3 times a week that dont reraise KK and JJ preflop, so Ill go right back to what I said earlier. A lot depends on who the players are.

Isn't this somewhat contradictory? I agree that if your range is value-heavy, then you should be betting smaller.

But if you have very little fold equity and your range is value-heavy, why not bet bigger to get more value?

Somewhat might be an understatement. I’ve never heard of that and that doesnt even make any sense. That’s implying we should 1/3 or even 1/4 cbet flops like 1098ss HU, 3-way, 5-way,........ etc because we have “very little fold equity”. It seems pretty backwards

Lots of interesting posts itt. I would be open to hearing a good argument for why betting 30 is good but I don't think I have heard one yet.

Too many people coming out of the woodwork to post all types of irrelevant pseudo semi brag/patronizing sillyness. If you are going to advocate a position at least try to contribute in a meaningful way.