120 seems somewhat small after a raise and two callers. Therefore I'm wondering if there's any merit to a shove. With your stacksize I actually think there might be.

Not in a million years would I consider shoving

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Very trivial fold. Not close.

Table change from a guy that tanks 5 minutes.

Funny, I do think it was closer than some suggest based on V2s image and our history. But having thought about it for a while and considering some points made here I agree it's not a cooler. I took my lumps though, second buy in I got my AA cracked by KK, all in pre. Pretty sure that one was a cooler. Third buy in was the charm.

Wow! That's just nasty

Dont see the merit in jamming $600 into a $90 pot. Only getting called by KK+, overprotecting our hand in position to win $90 seems like the nut low. I could have made it $150-180 but I dont think it changes ranges much and with my stack depth I can easily GII over two streets. KK isn't the hardest hand to play post even if it goes 3 ways.

I think there have been a lot of helpful points of analysis in this thread about the speech as a sign of strength, the first player likely tanking long times before in the past (making his range more nutted), but this is a call given the price. You will most likely get a call from V1 as well after calling meaning you are calling 480 more to win a pot of 1800. So in that case if you are up against AA and only have 18% equity you are losing $120 in EV by calling. As opposed to folding and losing $120 in EV.

Preflop I would make it 175 on the button to induce a shove from weaker ranges who see a massive bloated pot and a very likely button squeeze.

I would fold KK at 250 BB deep here. Very open to hear arguments for what the BB threshold point is headsup and threeways to fold KK.

This is wrong. The EV of folding is 0 dollars. Which is why folding is vastly preferred to calling against a range of AA.

tough one. if the LAG has AA here, that is a really good move. Also, if the nit has AA here, that is a really douche move to tank for five minutes. One thing is obvious, the LAG does not read the nit for AA and he knows that the nit is never going to fold to his shove, so that is a really strong move.

It seems that the LAG is reading the 4! of the nit as the nit trying to find out where he is at with something like JJ or QQ and reads him as weak. therefore, the LAG thinks that he can profitably jam with something like AK and get some folds.

There are certain situations where it is super obvious when someone has AA preflop. This is not one of those situations. Call.

just read the results. yeah. the speech is a big tell

Certainly seems like it, especially 300bb deep.

I'm more used to hearing "Screw it--I'm all-in" from splashy Villains with 50bb or less remaining, in which case it could just as easily be a hand a lot worse than AA

I feel like this hand and the live tells/reads is one of those "you had to be there" kind of things where you just know they have AA, and if you aren't 100% on that, you pile it in. I've been in this situation many times with the backraise over a 4b always being AA, but you can just always tell when that's what it is because of how the person acts. If V ever has the other KK (a distinct possibility) or AKs, you just can't fold here....so if you're 100% on it being AA, fold. If not, jam. I think that is the bottom line for all "should I fold KK pre?" threads anyway.

This is far from that. Lines are UTG 6x open/min 4! and UTG+1 flat/backraise 5! jam. If this isn't a fold then we should just go ahead and make the rule never fold KK pre ever, including when villains literally table AA.

But the utg 6x open and mini 4b wasn't AA which I assume is where most people would choose of the 2.

V2 is more likely to have AA given the action. He’s the one 5bet shoving $1200 eff over uncapped UTG PFR/4bet and BTN 3bet ranges. Regardless, between the two of them the odds are extremely high that one has AA.

This is a good summary but how many players can put a LAG on AA with 100% certainty? Obviously if we put someone on AA with that level of certainty the fold becomes trivial, getting to that level of certainty is the whole crux of the thread IMO. I think this can still be a fold even with slightly less than 100% certainty. I believe there exists some small probability that V1 still has AA sometimes with the ridiculous tank/raise although it's very small. There are also some times where V2 shows up with KK.
Another good take away IMO. Player profile wise, this is very true. If this super tight guy can make this move without AA, then certainly the LAG behind can have KK right? The chances that neither of them have it are fairly slim though IMO. Then we get into how much we allow live reads to influence decisions.

Range wise I agree. But not everyone believes folding KK pre is a thing. It's not like I have 5k hours with V2 but I am fairly confident given he covered us both that he could make the decision after that V1 tank that he's not folding KK and Hero isn't deep enough to really cripple him so lets just jam. He does the same thing with AA as well. Absolutely agree that between the two of them though we are kind of hero calling with KK. My reads could be off but I feel like ~10% of the time V1 is just a douche and still has AA and ~70% of the time V2 has AA. At the time I felt like it was more 50/50 with V2 but since I'm blocking KK and we are 3 ways AA becomes more likely. I'm still not able to get close to 100%, perhaps that will come with more study / time.

Which of the two we can more confidently put on exactly AA is a separate and pointless discussion. We're up against both of them.

I know stupid hypotheticals but what does V2 do with AKs or QQ as played when it's on him with the 5b option? Doubt the gambling lag whatever is just hero folding these. Obviously it opens up more combos for V1 to have AA but clearly he can do this with a hand besides AA.

If V2 has QQ he 3! and if V2 has AKs V1 has AA.

Oh it's that simple ok

No, it's simpler.

So basically this thread is the same as every other "do I fold KK pre?" thread.

Lol yes it is

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk