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2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? 2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever?

12-26-2018 , 10:23 PM
"**** it, I'm all in" is a classic 'weak means strong tell'. Caro would say that you should fold. I agree.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-26-2018 , 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aisrael01
"**** it, I'm all in" is a classic 'weak means strong tell'. Caro would say that you should fold. I agree.
what % of the time can it just mean "forget it im all in" and its not an angle? Especially from a dangerous lag who gambles too much.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-26-2018 , 10:35 PM
Hero said V can have bluffs here (if i’m Reading correctly). Hero has committed 20% of his stack already. I just can’t bring myself to fold in this spot.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-26-2018 , 10:42 PM
Quote:
I've seen him gamble too much, especially in small pots. He also has bluffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgalosk
Hero said V can have bluffs here (if i’m Reading correctly). Hero has committed 20% of his stack already. I just can’t bring myself to fold in this spot.
I took it to mean he’ll bluff in small pots but not large ones.

Just look at the action. UTG opens, he flats, we 3bet, UTG 4bets, he 5bet shoves $1200 effective over an uncapped UTG range.

Either he’s a maniac which isn’t being conveyed by OP’s read or he’s fairly nutted. And even if we’re ahead of him we have an uncapped UTG range to contend with who looks like he sized his 4bet to elicit a call from us so that he can shove any flop. Nothing wrong with taking a 20% haircut when the action dictates such.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-26-2018 , 10:48 PM
My head says fold//my heart says shove - Really tough spot but I'd vote for a fold here. At least one of the two very likely has AA.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-26-2018 , 10:59 PM
Well my .02

I don't think there's any reliable tell here. I have seen people make comments like oh well and push with A-x before. I have never seen anyone spend 5 minutes thinking and then 4 betting with Aces and most of the time pocket Aces will enthusiastically reraise very quickly. That being said, if there's a 4 bet and a shove, I think you fold Kings here.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-26-2018 , 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
I took it to mean he’ll bluff in small pots but not large ones.

Just look at the action. UTG opens, he flats, we 3bet, UTG 4bets, he 5bet shoves $1200 effective over an uncapped UTG range.

Either he’s a maniac which isn’t being conveyed by OP’s read or he’s fairly nutted. And even if we’re ahead of him we have an uncapped UTG range to contend with who looks like he sized his 4bet to elicit a call from us so that he can shove any flop. Nothing wrong with taking a 20% haircut when the action dictates such.
You may be right. I just feel like if you were to divide all these #s by 2.5 and post it as a 1/2 hand everyone would be saying it’s an auto call off.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-26-2018 , 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Nonsense. A lot the money won playing poker is won by winning more than most people when we have the best hand and losing less than most people when we have the worst hand.
I disagree with MikeStarr here. Just a little.

MOST of the money won playing poker, not just "a lot" of it ... is won by winning more than most people when we have the best hand and losing less than most people when we have the worst hand.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-26-2018 , 11:24 PM
[QUOTE=c0rnBr34d;54621004]$300 max, about 20 minutes into the session so minimal reads.

V1 - MAWG ~$400 - Hasn't seen a flop before this hand. Is actually wearing sunglasses in 2018. No reads other than his super low VPIP.

V2 - MABG covers - I've played with him before. He's a dangerous LAG who reads hands fairly well. I've seen him gamble too much, especially in small pots. He also has bluffs.

Hero - is also middle aged and short stacked in this hand with $240.

V1 opens UTG to $12. V2 quickly flats, one MP call. Hero looks down at KK OTB and raises to $48. SB tank folds. V1 TANKS. I realize there are Hollywood tanks but this guy literally took 4-5 mins. Another player not in the hand calls clock on him and says he often takes way too long to act. After 5+ mins as the floor arrives to start the clock V1 4! to $100. V2 then says something along the lines of "forget it, I'm all in" and jams like 500. Hero?

Do people really still advocate a fold when looking at it that way?
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 02:09 AM
[QUOTE=Gorgalosk;54622530]
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d
$300 max, about 20 minutes into the session so minimal reads.

V1 - MAWG ~$400 - Hasn't seen a flop before this hand. Is actually wearing sunglasses in 2018. No reads other than his super low VPIP.

V2 - MABG covers - I've played with him before. He's a dangerous LAG who reads hands fairly well. I've seen him gamble too much, especially in small pots. He also has bluffs.

Hero - is also middle aged and short stacked in this hand with $240.

V1 opens UTG to $12. V2 quickly flats, one MP call. Hero looks down at KK OTB and raises to $48. SB tank folds. V1 TANKS. I realize there are Hollywood tanks but this guy literally took 4-5 mins. Another player not in the hand calls clock on him and says he often takes way too long to act. After 5+ mins as the floor arrives to start the clock V1 4! to $100. V2 then says something along the lines of "forget it, I'm all in" and jams like 500. Hero?

Do people really still advocate a fold when looking at it that way?
Yes

Wrt to your comment where we put in 20% of our stack (48/250 isnt exactly 20% but w.e.), that money is a sunk cost and there should be no factor of it of whether we call off the rest of our stack vs the rejam
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
"The Speech" = "The nuts."

Fold.
Exactly this. I've folded KK a few times in spots similar to this, all because V said something indicating weakness right before shoving.

In situations like this, outside of specific reads I lean towards believing what they do rather than what they say.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodybuilder32
"Forget it I'm all in" speech is the nuts everytime

Fold and move on
+1. If i am in a close spot like this, obvious lock down livereads will be weighted into my decision.

Speech like this is just validated as the nutz countless times, over and over again.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calldown88
Just man up and take your coolers on the chin. KK vs AA isn't the spot where you make or lose money playing poker. You can profit when they're getting outta line, you lose nothing long term by calling. Especially when short (which why are you doing this in the first place?) put the $ in.
spoken like a true fish
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 11:24 AM
Sorry for not being clear. I'm in the fold camp and it's close but pretty clear IMO.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 11:49 AM
I've only ever folded KK pre once, and it's entirely player(s) dependent.

In the BB, I look down at KK, 500 effective. LAG raises early to 15. Nit quickly & confidently 3bets to 50. HJ calls. Another nit lady 4bets from the button to 125. SB folds.

Normally I am jamming here, but the two confident nits had me really concerned. I couldn't see them acting like that with anything but AKs, KK, AA. Even QQ or AKo would have had a bit more thought, and neither of them is ever bluffing here. I tanked and ended up folding.

It gets back to the LAG who shoves, calls all around.

LAG: 86s
Nit 1: AA
HJ: 87s
Nit 2: KK

Cards run out 6Q6 J 10
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjvegas
I've only ever folded KK pre once, and it's entirely player(s) dependent.

In the BB, I look down at KK, 500 effective. LAG raises early to 15. Nit quickly & confidently 3bets to 50. HJ calls. Another nit lady 4bets from the button to 125. SB folds.

Normally I am jamming here, but the two confident nits had me really concerned. I couldn't see them acting like that with anything but AKs, KK, AA. Even QQ or AKo would have had a bit more thought, and neither of them is ever bluffing here. I tanked and ended up folding.

It gets back to the LAG who shoves, calls all around.

LAG: 86s
Nit 1: AA
HJ: 87s
Nit 2: KK

Cards run out 6Q6 J 10
No one cares bud. This isn't your poker hand journal and this hand proves nothing.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgalosk
Hero said V can have bluffs here (if i’m Reading correctly). Hero has committed 20% of his stack already. I just can’t bring myself to fold in this spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
I took it to mean he’ll bluff in small pots but not large ones.

Just look at the action. UTG opens, he flats, we 3bet, UTG 4bets, he 5bet shoves $1200 effective over an uncapped UTG range.

Either he’s a maniac which isn’t being conveyed by OP’s read or he’s fairly nutted. And even if we’re ahead of him we have an uncapped UTG range to contend with who looks like he sized his 4bet to elicit a call from us so that he can shove any flop. Nothing wrong with taking a 20% haircut when the action dictates such.
Johnny's interpretation is mostly right here. I'd played several sessions with V2 but not enough to see him get out of line in a spot like this. I'd never seen him take a line this strong pre flop 3 ways. His normal LAG image was tempting me to call but to 5 bet shove into two nitty raisers seems like suicide without KK+. I couldn't believe V1 would tank that long with AA and I was trying to figure out the bottom of V2s jamming range, I didn't think it included QQ. After the tank raise I felt he could have sensed some weakness from V1 and decided to go for it with KK+. What I couldn't really determine in the heat of the moment is if it was KK+ only or if it also included AKs.

Last edited by c0rnBr34d; 12-27-2018 at 12:55 PM.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 12:47 PM
Results??

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 12:53 PM
Didn't expect this much discussion. Thanks all. Seems the consensus has moved clearly towards a fold. 8 calls, 12 folds. Care to weigh in MikeStarr?

Will post results later today.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 03:30 PM
Only 20 minutes in I would have a very hard time folding here readless. You would have to be a pretty big ******* to tank for literally 5 minutes and jam with AA. If I am the utg pfr, I would be 4! hands besides AA so that the other deep stacks behind cant call and realize their equity deep. As for the MABG having AA/KK I would discount that as well. Most people don't have that in their playbook. I don't think we have enough reads here to do anything but gii.

+1 to getting it in here at this stack size
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d
Didn't expect this much discussion. Thanks all. Seems the consensus has moved clearly towards a fold. 8 calls, 12 folds. Care to weigh in MikeStarr?

Will post results later today.
I really don't like giving advice to fold KK preflop because obviously we should very rarely do it. Ive folded it 3 times preflop in about 5000 hrs.

All 3 times someone did have AA....but of course Ive not folded KK preflop and been up against AA plenty of times.

Ive never personally seen someone 4 bet to a smallish amount like this and it NOT be AA so you can put me in the "fold" camp. That doesnt even take into consideration the 3rd guy who just shoved 200BBs over top of the 4 bet.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 06:55 PM
Thanks all, valid points.

Results:
Spoiler:
Hero mini tank called, giving in to LAGs image more than his action. I thought there was a reasonable chance we could chop which would be +300 for me. I had mixed feelings about the tank raise but figured it was also worth the lesson to see what V1 was doing this with. V1 paused only for a second and called behind.
The board ran out T high or something. V2 has the AA. V1 did not show.
The player to my left said he folded QQ and showed it to the player next to him who confirmed. I guess V1 had to have the case KK there? At any rate, given our history I tend to agree this is a fold. For V2 to 5 bet into the two nittiest players at the table he has to be extremely nutted. I may have put too much stock into V1s tank as well but at least we were right that it wasn't also AA.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 07:58 PM
Under 150 BB AA vs KK AI preflop is a cooler.
250 BB having KK vs AA AI isn't a cooler.

Simple as that.
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 08:20 PM
^^ this is pretty wrong but i’ll let u try to figure out why

If u giveup, click below

Spoiler:
Sometimes, true maniacs play poker. I’ve seen some before, true story
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote
12-27-2018 , 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d
Thanks all, valid points.

Results:
Spoiler:
Hero mini tank called, giving in to LAGs image more than his action. I thought there was a reasonable chance we could chop which would be +300 for me. I had mixed feelings about the tank raise but figured it was also worth the lesson to see what V1 was doing this with. V1 paused only for a second and called behind.
The board ran out T high or something. V2 has the AA. V1 did not show.
The player to my left said he folded QQ and showed it to the player next to him who confirmed. I guess V1 had to have the case KK there? At any rate, given our history I tend to agree this is a fold. For V2 to 5 bet into the two nittiest players at the table he has to be extremely nutted. I may have put too much stock into V1s tank as well but at least we were right that it wasn't also AA.
Did you "man up and take your cooler on the chin"? Or do you believe that the better you get at poker, the less you have to accept what other people call "coolers"
2/5 Can we fold KK pre here? Or ever? Quote

      
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