Sorry if this write-up is a bit confusing.


10/25, full ring with 3 people up or sitting out during this hand

Saturday night, game has oscillated between very good and meh over the past 5-6 hours.

Hero had a huge rush stacking V2 3 times in less than 30 minutes towards the beginning of the game. Since that point, have switched between LAG/TAG multiple times. Image is probably rec player who is running good and always has it. Was seen ~30 minutes ago flatting QQ in the blinds vs bn raise and winning at showdown betting turn and river.

V1- is an out of town pro, who is a LAG. Won heaps in HU match a few hours ago vs another pro and is currently getting killed in this game. Think he is in for ~20k+.

V2- out of town rec player who is gambly pre-flop, see ~50-60% of flops and hasn't folded to a 3b yet. We have gii 4x tonight (3 wins and a chop for me). He has had strong holdings all 4 times. 2 were coolers, 1 he should/could have folded.

We just played the following hand a few minutes before:
Hero opens 99 utg
V2 calls on bn
flop 10 9 6 ddd
i bet he calls
turn 10
i bet he raises, i call
river 6
i c/f - he shows King of hearts. 90% sure he has exactly K10hh

Eff stacks
v1 - 7k
v2- 10k
hero - 10k

I will explain the real action and what i thought the action was...

6 handed

Real action:
V1 opens utg to 100 (he has been switching between 75/100), V2 min raises to 175, Hero flats QcQd on the button, V1 makes it 500, V2 calls.

What I thought happened: V1 is bb, v2 opens to 175 (he has opened to 100 exclusively in the last 2 hours), hero flats. at this point i realize what happens when the sb and bb both fold

V2 meant to 3b to 250 and had wrong denominations

I want to discuss 2 decision points based on the misunderstanding

1. Hero's action after the 4b

2. Flop decision based on what I chose to do pre


Hero elects to flat on the BN again.

Pot is $1535
Flop
J9 3
V1 checks
V2 leads 800
Hero?

Don't think you have any option, but to flat pre. Even if they always have AA/KK we are priced in to set mine this deep IP. I want to fold this flop we lose to JJ now and from the description his 3b range sounds pretty strong. If you have QcQx you can justify a flop call and evaluate turns.

A+ thread title

Was this known preflop or after the hand? i.e., did he react / try to say he meant $250?

Think either player is capable of knowing your chicken quesadilla range here?

Anywho, seems standard so far. What's the turn.

He mentioned after my action to the dealer that he threw in the wrong chips.

I assume he was making it 250 due to number of chips (4) and that was his standard all day.

Haha Steak Dianne range to be exact. Any 5b is going to rep strong. Flats considering how deep we are and closing the action can be pretty wide.

I may post the turn after giving people a chance to comment on the other 2 decision points.

What you perceived:

I think flatting the initial "open" of 7x is fine because it's a very large/unorthodox open and we are trillions deep otb vs someone we've been taking a giant crap on (also likely to be heads up).

Obv these could be reasons to fist pump 3b but in general the non-standard huge opens from rec players are exclusively value heavy and our 3b sizing would be closer to 4b sizing anyways. Like I don't think a 3b is bad esp considering our depth but I would be much more content to casually flick in 2 blacks and continuing to feast on my delicious steak.

What actually happened:

Once we realize it was in fact a raise, and UTG still 4bets, I think he's obv pretty strong bc he is re-opening action on someone that specifically outted they wanted to raise more. We're obv not just set mining but 5b seems pretty over the top imo.

Basically had same thought process

You left out the most important point in your OP.

What are you eatting for dinner? Clearly your steak 7x open flatting range is far stronger than your sandwich 7x open flatting range. It is also worth noting that your EV for taking the pot down pre with a steak is much higher than with sandwich because of how many more delicious hot steak bites you will gain. Failing to consider such factors is a massive meal leak imo.

Pretty important insight from the guy whose quesadilla range is comparable to your steak range, imo.

A factor that might be worth considering is how tilted (if at all) is V1? You mention he's stuck at least a buy in or two in the game (assuming he bought in for 5-10K). You say he's a lag and I'd guess he may not have to have a big hand to 4 bet after a loose guy reraises and hero just calls the first round.

It could be worth a 5 bet for hero trying to get heads up (or get a fold) with V1 (and I'm still ok with 3 handed if V2 calls too, with what is likely to be worse). In a game with relatively small stacks this is probably what I'd do - just shove pre).

But I can be ok with just calling the bets this deep, and "playing poker" once you see a flop. As it played out probably raising that flop, making it about 2k.

I'd call the 800, especially with a club. With 6500 behind and 1500 in the pot, it's a decent spot for V1 to check raise his overpairs, but not a great spot. Also, I think his sizing is fishy. Doesn't KK+ make it more than 500 pre with these stacks? I think given the small 4-bet pre and the fact that V2 didn't 5-bet and is betting only half pot makes your hand much more likely to be good than it should normally be.

Renton, with my suggestion of raising the flop I'm discounting overpairs a lot for V1 obv. Question - if we just call V2's flop bet are we opening ourselves up for a bluff CR from V1 (the lag who apparently plays big)? Then how do we react? Of course if we do raise the flop and V1 does CR that we are probably smoked(and might also be if he flats our raise) but if he does not have a big hand I'd think he likely dumps it leaving us head up against V2. ,And I'm thinking we should have the best hand most of the time against V2 barring a flopped set.

4b/f pre as played call flop

Please disregard my ramblings above about raising the flop bet.

In truth it does not make sense to raise V2's flop bet, and I agree with calling. If we had reraised originally preflop it might (or might not) have made sense to continue the agression post (depending on how pre played out) but once we called twice pre I don't see any other play than calling the 800 on the flop, then see how V1 responds.

I need to remember never to post a response to a thread after a wine dinner.

If I was paying better attention I am 4betting pre, but have you ever tried eating a steak with plastic utensils?!?

I flatted flop. V1 folds.

Turn A (non club)
V2 bets 1000 quickly.

I'm not a fan of the "freeze raise" in general, unless the freezing effect is peripheral to the main reasons for raising. I could see a case made for raise/folding the flop here because that gets the most value/protection from V2's range, but I don't think his range is very weak here. I don't even think you can take AA/KK out of his range when he flats 500. Maybe AA can be discounted a little. I like a value raise here if you have seen V2 do a lot of small reraising like this, and especially if you have a read that he reraises to a larger size with big pairs.

I'm not happy when he bets 1000, but it's less than 1/3p. You probably have enough equity to call, but there might be some rivers you can just rip 7k when he checks (clubs basically). One way or the other you should be able to win 20% of the pot on the river IMO. The Q rivers alone are probably worth ~400 dollars of your call.

I think it's really hard for anyone to give solid advice from an outside perspective in this hand, everything is so dependent on game flow/more specific preflop tendencies from both villains. For instance was V2 3betting a lot? How wide do you perceive V1s 4bet range?

I would play it the same way you did preflop whether I misunderstood the action or not. On the flop, without further reads I think it's going to be a close fold vs most villains as described in this spot. Unless the game was playing super super loose/spewy, imo all 3 ranges look hella strong preflop and on this board and I don't think V2 is expecting to get 2 folds otf hardly at all (unless he's totally brain dead idk). Making profitable turn and river decisions will not be easy.

Edit: As played fold turn

Double edit: Turn actually might be close for that sizing

I'm calling turn given sizing but reads on his 3betting range would be useful here. You should have some sort of idea what kind of stuff he's 3betting with here at this point.

This is the first 4b by V1 that I have seen so far. He has opened his share of pots and 3bs at a decent frequency.

I am inclined to believe that his 3b is unlikely KK/QQ/JJ and most AA but leave 1 combo in there for spazz effect by V2.


what sizing are you using?

I think his range is something like AJs/KQs/88-QQ (all)/ no KK, almost no AA

I'm not sure he folds anything better than a 1 pair hand on the river if the flush completes and I jam, so very little bluff equity, but I am stacking him 100% of the time that a Q hits.

3b range is probably something like this: AJs+/KQs+/AQo+/66+

I don't think he flats KK+ to the 4b very often.

He did flat AKo to my 4b earlier in the night and we got it in on a AXX flop to chop.

Posted as part of this reply.

V2 is gambly and bad by mid-stakes standards, but he isn't clueless or a total spazz. His 3b range is reasonable and mostly weighted towards value. I really don't think he 3bs SCs or 1 gappers like 67/79 etc

Renton I'm very curious on your preflop thoughts on both situations (on our first VPIP decision)

When we think V2 just randomly opened 7x

When we think V2 min 3bets an UTG open

As Renton points out if you call the 1K you have $446 equity if there's no more betting, just hoping to hit the queen (providing that it's good of course). That's not really enough by itself, though at least you are hopefully not drawing dead if we discount AA from his preflop action And he may be bluffing/semibluffing with a worse hand - you have not shown any strength, and he can have you on a likely draw.

I know you are ranging him as mostly value but If you give him 10% bluffs/semi-bluffs you have the equity for a call in my view, with big implied odds if the q does roll off (assuming he doesn't have the dreaded AA).

You could consider raising instead of calling the turn - you would not be repping much other than AK that got stubborn on the flop, AJ, or a set that decided to wait for the turn to play it. And he might have a hand like that himself that's not folding no matter how big you raise. It might work against KK or even an A other than AK/AJ. But doesn't seem like the ideal play here.

Can you win the pot without hitting a queen? Sounds like you don't think so unless he has a worse hand than QQ. Overall I guess I'm calling and deciding on the river.

This almost needs to be two threads, one for pre and one for turn action. There is a lot to be discussed here.

Ok yeah I def wasn't getting that impression from the OP, I had more of a loose/passive image in my mind, although reading it again you did say "gambly" which makes sense.

Anyway this changes the whole situation dramatically because it should also make V1s 4bet range much wider. With this new info,I'd still play pre the same, but then id call flop and call this turn as well. Think we'll be able to get a feel for where we're at otr. Interesting hand

I should have done a better job, posting the OP during work makes for a poor OP.

He was gambly in the sense that he didn't like to fold pre but was not super aggro.

His 3b and what I assume 4b+ tendencies were very reasonable, but initial opens are very wide and calls with any suited cards +

what sizing are you using?

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525 pre, could see an argument for more as well. basically this guy is a fish, he's 3betting a linear strong range, and probably has a poor strategy for defending vs 4bets. he will probably split his range pre, allowing us to fold to his 5b and have a huge equity advantage vs his calling range (which will likely be too wide). taking the line we did pre (call, call) , leads to us playing a smaller pot in position without initiative, whereas 4b leads to us playing a bigger pot in position with initiative.

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vs the 2 theoretical spots

vs 7x

4b

vs 4x min 3b

4b

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its not close either imo