Not sure if you're trying to put down my theory here, or just commenting. But yeah, I assume their heads would be on spikes if Robert found out.

Tywin didn't make an appearance until something like s02e04. Ned had already sent ravens to every major house in Westeros declaring Joffrey an incest bastard. Before Ned put the word out, there was never a mention of this. This was not an open secret, and if you think it was, you've misinterpreted the show.

edit: As Rex said, Ned sent just the one letter, it was Stannis who hit "reply to all" on Ned's raven.

Man, it's not like you even took an out of context quote and made it seem damning. You took an out of context quote, and it just looks like an out of context quote. He didn't even call her dumb, and if Tywin thought she was, he would have. He told her she's not as smart as she thinks. Overestimating your own intelligence makes you less intelligent that you think you are, not necessarily dumb.

I think I'm done responding to your silliness.

I was just commenting and now you have me rethinking the Bran assassination attempt. Cersie is very much capable but she's not stupid. Joffery however is totally stupid but I don't really see how he had the power at the time to do that.

Here is the clip with Cat, Varys and Littlefinger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPtBpvptBY

Varys didn't know who the dagger belonged to.

Tower scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cFx5HSpAvQ

Here's the clip with Jamie and Cersie after the tower scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCpZpWOFXrA

Again, he had a personal detail of cold blooded killers who listened to his every command.

We see him ordering Clegane around in s01, maybe even as early as e01 or e02. You are right, we didn't see him openly flex his power really, just whine about how he was gonna tell his mom-- but he certainly had the power, the question is just whether he figured out he had it or not. If that's what's standing between this theory working flawlessly and Jaime and/or Cersie setting it up, it's laughably easy to just accept that while it hadn't been shown on screen, he had figured it out.

It's just a great reveal if it ends up true. All the dots are connected beautifully after the fact.

On first view it came across as real calculating, but after absorbing three seasons you realize just how stupidly planned it was.

Joff's motivations might be a bit faulty, but he's a psycho and an idiot so that can pass.

That's one way of looking at that scene. The other, what if Cersei is right and Tywin is wrong? Tywin thinks that all he has to do is give Joffrey a few stern talking tos and the boy will fall into line, which we've seen him do twice, once in the throne room, once during the small council meeting. What if, instead of causing Joffrey to fall in line, Tywin has vastly underestimated how ruthless Joffrey is and how eager he will be to show Tywin that he is the true king? Then, it is Tywin, not Cersei, who isn't as smart as he thinks he is. I think it's pretty clear that a rift between Tywin and Joffrey is forming, going to be interesting to see what happens during season 4. We've already seen Joffrey and Tywin on opposite sides of one issue, Dany and her dragons, and it wasn't Tywin showing greater wisdom

Nice read Dudd.

It's funny because Joffrey, the most true Lannister (genetically, not according to Westerossi laws) is the one who has been and probably will be the downfall of their family. Now speaking of Westerossi law, it's interesting to think what a **** spot Tywin is in. All he wants to do is secure a legacy of greatness for his family, yet his heir took a vow of celibacy, his daughter's children don't have the family name, and all that is left is the imp who he doesn't see fit to inherit his title.

anyway, Kirby should totally buy one of these

gotta be blunt

I think the one thing Tywin is failing miserably to notice is that Joffery is just bat**** crazy in the worst kind of Mad King way. He thinks he can manipulate Joffery into bending to his will. Trying to manipulate and control crazy people has the same outcome as trying to bluff fish, they never fold.

Is it ever confirmed that the dagger was in fact owned by Tyrion? My recollection is that he denied the dagger was his.

If so, it seems much more likely to me that LF was behind the plot that Joffrey, and that he just lied to Cat about the dagger to frame Tyrion.

The idea that Joffrey would kill Bran just seems so far fetched. Even if it succeeds, what does it accomplish for him? It shows up Tyrion for slapping him, but unless he takes credit, Tyrion will never know. I could see Joffrey trying to kill Tyrion for the slap, but not Bran.

I don't think he ever denied that it was his, just that he'd be a fool to arm an assassin with his own blade

Crazy and young minds fixate on strange things when it comes time for revenge and resentment. Like a brother resenting his younger half brother when the half brother has done nothing but been born. But in the boy's mind the half brother symbolizes his family being broken apart, his mother being with another man, limited visiting hours with dad, etc etc.

As for the dagger not being Tyrions.. I thought it was Varys who identified it. If so, I'm liking the odds of my speculation being right, if not, I like the odds since we don't seem to have a motive for Baelish setting up Tyrion.

I'm inclined to believe it was Cersei behind the attempt on Brann, however it could have been Jaime or maybe both of them.

chaos ladders tho

LittleFinger being involved makes some sense, except for i don't really know how that happens logistically with him being in King's Landing, hearing about that, and setting up an assassination attempt with such little time (unless maybe the royals were up in Winterfell a lot longer than i think)

and on re-watch, it seems really obvious how hard LF has been trying to drive wedges and create conflict between the families, really playing all sides with no one other than Varys noticing/caring

Varys could not ID it, then Littlefinger gets all excited to know something Varys doesn't and says it's his. He claims he lost it betting on Jamie Lannister.

LF identified the dagger. I think someone posted this scence above.

LF definitely has a motive to set up Tyrion. He is the type that does well in times of chaos. A fight between the Starks and Lannisters can only help him as he can play both sides.

Tywin appeared mid-late season 1.

I don't think they show how long it was between Bran falling and the assasination attempt so it could have been enough time for LF to arrange the attempt.

EP 7 I believe, skinning a deer whilst scoffing at Jamie's self consciousness.

I just did a rewatch of season one, so some of this stuff is fresh in my mind.

They do mention the time that Cat sat by his bedside in episode 3, I think it was 3 weeks total. I'll go look it up...

Edit: It was episode 5, but it was 3 weeks.

for example, look at how obviously he's playing Ned, who is either an idiot or blinded by rage

pretty sure there's a lot of this in S1, but i haven't watched any of those eps in a while

When I mentioned the possibility of Baelish setting up Tyrion, I meant by just falsely identifying the blade-- not that he actually orchestrated the botched assassination, because he most certainly did not do that.

And someone just said that he ID'd the blade with the backstory that he lost it to Tyrion in a gambling match. There's no way he sets up Tyrion by using a blade he is also tied to, that's just silly. I did think of the chaos aspect, but Baelish is all about nudging people towards chaotic decisions, not actually plotting murders.

I did remember the first Tywin scene was him skinning the deer, but I thought it was later. Does anyone have the scene? Where were they?

It's interesting that the reference to Tywin hunting is him skinning a deer, while Robert just wanders around drunkenly and gets a boar's tusk in his gut.

I'm pretty sure Tyrion tells Cat his dagger was stolen.

Here's the skinning scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47MazYDnmaU

The skinning scene is in episode 7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47MazYDnmaU

If LF is going to frame Tyrion, it has to be with a blade he is tied to. He has to have a believable story about why he knows its Tyrion's. He can't just say I saw Tyrion carry it, because then others can say they never saw Tyrion with it. Similarly, if he says he knew Tyrion won it (or got it from someone else) that person could deny that. By saying that LF lost it to Tyrion, LF is the only one that can prove or deny that it is Tyrion's blade.

Also, LF isn't just about nudging people towards bad decisions. He orchestrated the death of Ned. He also orchestrated the death of Rosyln. He is clearly not above ordering assassinations.