Better hand reading skills just make it easier to assess hand ranges, which in turn makes it easier to make mathematically correct decisions. I don't understand how you can be one or the other.

I don't believe in feel as in "going with your gut", as in purely instinctive and nothing rational. You should always have an explanation for what you are doing, whether mathematical or otherwise. Feel could be based on past experience which allows you to better estimate your equity when ranges are fluid. Feel is also things you had to calculate time and time again when you were a worse player than you are now that is second nature to you.

Feel = the accumulated knowledge of the game up to this point. For example a spot comes up against a certain opponent i automatically know how to play optimal in this situation with how what i FEEeeeeeelllll is correct... Obv everything can be made into a math equation when we play poker we merge all the variables and make the best decision...

come on this thread is as ******ed as all the responses.

Intuition > Mathematics, the numbers are "guide lines" for what should or shouldn't be done, but in marginal situations with imperfect information and a TIME LIMIT you have to rely on your intuition (or rather the some of your experience) to make incredibly fast and accurate decisions.

The problem tho' is that you can't teach intuition, but you can teach math, so people learn the math before they develop their intuition. But I guarantee, a player who has a rough idea of the math and strong intuition will kick the **** out of a player who has a perfect understanding of the math and weak intuition. Mathematics will make you a good player, but intuition will make you a great player.

It's not at all about intuition, but about experience. A poker player who "knows" when his flush draw will hit will IMO go broke in no time. There is no such intuition that can make calling a $100 bet in a $200 pot on turn with a lone flush draw and $100 behind correct when villain shows you a big overpair. Mathemathics says it cannot be profitable and no knocking on wood is going to change that.

Hand ranges, estimates whether villain is going to bet or check, etc. are based on experience. A high stakes player is often going to think of something that might be a hard decision to us as trivial. The difference between a pro and a donk is whether he can explain why does he take the action he takes.

For example, when I drive half a mile south of my house, there is a high-profile intersection where not only all crossing roads are completely obstructed from view by buildings and trees, but there is also a chicane in front of it, a strange system of priorities and a steep downhill grade on all roads, including the intersection itself. When I come to this intersection, I don't stop I have a "feeling" I'm gonna run over a school kid, I stop because I've seen a lot of crashes there and few people respect the priority system, so I don't want to wreck my car.

The point is, both mathematics and experience are necessary for a good poker player. Mathematics can work without experience, although probably not satisfactorily for most people. Experience (or intuition) by itself is worth nothing, since you're not gonna profit from your bad habits, but experience can amplify results in connection to mathematics. OTOH, "intuition" is a way overused word that's actually supposed to signify that gut feeling that makes fishes spazz their money right into our hands.

I'm not sure how much I agree with this analogy. While they do appear to be very related topics, it is a misleading example.

Most of the quantitative analysis that is used in the financial services industry is pure bull**** and is one of the reasons we find ourselves in the economic downturn that we are in. I don't know much about bonds and options but if you look at equities, then people like Warren Buffet and Peter Lynch pride themselves on NOT being overly mathematical in their analyses. They use a great deal of intuition in conjunction with sound judgement, but a lot of what they do is very difficult to quantify. They can look at a company's financial reports, use this alongside the products/ services that that company provides, look at the competition they have, the sector they are in etc. and come to a very profitable decision.

With poker, I'd argue that the mathematics behind it are NOT beyond people who are prepared to put the hours in, so people who are serious about the game will put the hours in.

Imagine you are about to fight someone. There are numerous weapons on the floor that you can both easily pick up. If you do not pick up a weapon, your opponent will, and he will **** you up. That is how I see math in poker. Natural talent can get you very far, but there are people out there who are prepared to make the commitment to studying the math behind it, and they will be more prepared than you are. In addition to this, you have A LOT of people doing this, so it is to be expected there is a section of them who are naturally talented as well. These are the players who can go all the way.

There also comes introspective behaviour; studying your previous hands, reading, thinking about poker, discussing it with friends/ peers etc.

There is also A LOT of pattern recognition in poker. I am a huge donk, and I'll be the first to admit it, but experience alone has taught me that QTo is not that great a hand. There 52 cards you play with never change. You end up getting a lot of experience of scenarios that you can use in the future. Low paired flops with an overcard, monotone flops, rainbow flops etc.

For these reasons you cannot really compare poker to the financial markets.

I disagree, im most certaintly a feel player but ofcourse still use odds etc.. incorporate them both - Online is far easier to spot a bluff than live for me, although im inexperienced live lol

Depends on what level.
The higher the stakes, the more you incorporate 'feel' (define feel plz).
Generally at micros/low stakes online, should be at least 95% maths, 5% feel, imo

What about using mathematical intuition while playing?

During live play, I rely heavily on my "gut" to determine what I should do in contentious pots. It has worked extremely well and I've yet to regret any action I've made on intuition. I can't tell you why I think a person's bluffing (nervous tick, rubbed chin, etc.), but if my gut is telling me he's full of it, I'll call/raise. Likewise in reverse, sometimes I just KNOW he's got a hand. Again, I can't point out anything specific. I'm obviously pulling in the information, but I'm not conscious of how it's being processed.

That being said, ignoring math is just inviting disaster. If the pot is laying crappy odds and your opponent has so little behind that your implied odds are also weak, why make a call with your draw? Even if you get the feeling he is weak, it doesn't make sense to pay that much with a likely weaker hand.

I would say that math comes first and foremost (online or live), but if you can harness intuition in live play, you'll take your play to another level entirely.

It should be noted that my intuition is completely ineffective online. I'm often left scratching my head at what the other person is doing or representing and whether it's true or false. Math is all I have for online play.

feel is also based on experience. I think math players are better limit players. dave skalansky is what i consider a math players, tends to overanalyze every situation. no that its a bad thing, but barry greenstein openly critized him for lacking the "feel', how a players play. sometimes a feel player may lack in math as well.

**** now I know why i never come to this forum anymore.

So basically you are saying you don't care about math, even don't care about unexploitable play ........... even just play 1 on 1 and do this math and you can't be exploited. You would rather go all-in with 55 on a 7 high board on a hunch? And what exactly is that hunch? That this time he'll call with pocket 4's? Or he'll fold or w/e. It's not hard to tell that in this spot shoving with AK or AQ is so so so so so so much better than shoving with 77.

i believe intuition is basically experience disguise as a gut feeling.
read malcolm gladwell's blink.

it comes more from experience/tell from the opponent that you pick up and it's in your subconscious giving you a feeling, rather than thinking it's a natural gift/talent

FMP

I never understood this dichtomy. Ignoring the math just means you're a donk. But if you really understand the math you also know that having good reads and being able to pick up on physical tells live gives you an enormous advantage.

Knowing for sure whether someone is bluffing or betting for value on the river is more valuable than knowing that someone never bluffs in that spot. Even being right 80% percent of the time gives you a lot of value and should change the way you play on earlier streets.

You can work on having more balanced ranges or playing close to unexploitably preflop 100BBs deep vs regs but the value you get from these is tiny compared to the value you get from people who give away the strength of their hand completely.

Math is to LHE what a hammer is to pounding nails
Math is to NLHE what physics is to a knife fight

apparently I have spoken, imo

With maths you can beat the game, or break even if everyone else knows the math. Feel gives you the edge to crush but you always needs maths as a base to make your descicion. Particularly true in NLH and even more so in plo.

Thread!

I was a winning (feel) Player. Then i decided to take it serious and tried to
learn ICM. The result was a 15K games break even phase. Now im a winning
(feel) Player again.

But i also wouldnt call a all in with 69 without a good reason....

I have not read either of Papa Brunsons books, but i have heard that his first book address exactly that. In Brunsons early years he played the player and that gets me to where I want to go. I have played a lot of poker (and I mean a lot of poker). Most for fun but from time to time to supplement my income. There are three stages of poker; first you play only your hand and nothing else, second you learn to play the math, then third you learn to play the players. I believe in the feel of the game and your hand, but pay close attention to the feel you get from the other players.

It also depends on your stack and more importantly your bank roll. If you do not have the bank roll you cannot play math or feel, ONLY THE NUTS THEN. Enough of a bank roll allows for math and a living. A big bank roll allows for feel and a life.

I think you should combine the two. When a guy stacks you all in and you have a good read that he has top pair and you have a draw, you use math to decide what your odds are. Don't use your gut on draws, use your gut on calling nuts or air based on player tendencies. I don't see why you have to delineate yourself as one or the other, I know Phil Ivey and Dwan both use math and gut feel depending on what the situation dictates.

Example 1:

TAG villain on button raised 5xbb on CO, you have 9h8h.
Flop comes AsTh7h, you bet, reraise shove. Villain hit his ace, but he is a SS. Calculate your outs and use math here

Example 2:

Get to the river, check UTG with pocket J's, board has a K and Q, opponent shoves, pot sized bet. Here you use your gut, have you seen this move several times? How did the hand play out? Did you play it like you had something strong, possibly two pair or stronger? Does your opponent bluff a lot here? How aggressive is your opponent, has he just had a cooler? A cooler against you? Consider all the factors of previous hands, the aggression level of your opponent and the way the hand played out and make a decision, here you have to go on gut feeling because there is no definitive answer what to do.

I can confidently say that a feel guy is actually a mathematical genius who does more complex equations in his head than Brian Townsend could ever dream of.

I am one of these human beings and I looked deep into my soul to get this equation you all wish you had that the true genius's think about effortlessly.

We start with y=(5x + 3y + kz)

x = number of times you've estimated villain to bluff per 169 hands.
y = number of hands you're opponent has seen you bluff per 169 hands.
z = number of pots you've won in the past 169 hands.
k is an arbitrary constant that is equal to the number of miles you've jogged in the last week (This indicates how well you're running)

You integrate this equation over an interval of time of your choosing and if it comes out to be > 0 over an arbitrary interval, you should NOT fold your kings preflop because the villain is likely to hold pocket queens.

The true poker masters know different equations like this for every single different situation in poker and they do it effortlessly in their heads. When you see Phil Ivey or Greg Raymer writing down notes while they play with pen and paper it's because their minds aren't advanced enough to do this type of thing in their head.

LEARN the math.
MASTER poker.