Hey everyone, I havent been a member for two long, but I do post every now and then and ask for opinions. So heres my question. For much of my life I was a "feel" player when it came to poker, trusting my gut on many decisions even if the math stated otherwise. Which led me to some success, and some swings severe swings as well, because I wasnt as well versed in the game as I have become now. The problem I have encountered is while my instincts are still there, so many of the books I read focus on the math aspects of Poker. Which has changed my game a bit to a more mathmatical approach. While I am not experiencing some of the drastic swings anymore, my game has suffered slightly. I want to know, how many people here are "feel" players, vs strict math players, and does anyone know of any books that do not cover as much math. Even just articles that discuss the topic would gladly help

When you say feel do you mean "feel based on past experience" or are you referring to the same type of "feel" a donk experiences when he calls all in with 69s because he "knows" its coming.

Well im not callin all ins with 69s, doesnt matter what type of feel i have. Unless I have some sick sick read on someone then maybe, when hell froze over and I learned to fly. The feel based on past experience is something that everyone has, but I think people dont take into account the feeling that some get while playing. That feeling when you call on the turn for an inside straight draw simply getting that gut feeling. Does that make someone a donk to you. I think that term is thrown around so much it looses its meaning. Ive been called a donk before for calling after an all in after a flop of 763 with pocket 55s and spiking a five on the turn against jacks. What is left out of that story when its told by my opponent is that I saw him reach for chips before the flop even hit. And he was on tilt a bit from a hand before. So I actually thought I was good. I made the wrong read and it worked out for me. That was based on feeling and what I saw. I felt I was making the right call. Turned out I was wrong, but still hit a 5 to win the hand. Those types of feelings. Im not talking the all in preflop. I know its coming J6 off suit call an all in, type of feeling.

My theory:
A math player should have more success online than a feel player. A feel player should have more success in live poker than a math player.

This will likely explain why I am not successfull online, along with the fact that I'm a nerd and can find 100 things more exciting online then playing poker. But live its a different feeling. Everything seems in tune, and I am focussed on just playing poker

Pretty sure that's exactly what donks tell themselves. You could very well be crushing live and I'm not saying you are bad but calling gutshots on the turn without proper odds or implied odds is the very definition of a donkey.

I think it depends on the situation; both are required in different spots

You need math for multiway pots, and situations where pot odds dictate the play
Likewise when short stacked - Math tells you when you need to go into shove/fold mode

"Feel" play I would say is based on reads and playing the player - This is for HU, deeper stacked scenarios, and squeezes/steals

agreed

Saying that you're a 'feel player' sounds to me like you never tried to learn the math. I think a good poker player knows both math and (let's call it) psychology. But there are different levels of math and psychology, and we need to make clear what we're talking about here. A 'feel player' who never learns to calculate odds of drawing hands is simply an idiot; his 'feel' talent can't make up for the mistakes he's making by calling or folding too often. However, I think players who don't use advanced math (e.g. calculating the possible combinations in an opponent's range that beat him) can easily make up for this if they have a strong ability to spot tells and betting patterns (especially live). Similarly a math player who doesn't read Caro's Book of Tells (and doesn't know that someone who talks on the river before he shoves has the nuts) is an idiot and his ignorance is costing him money. But the fact that he doesn't pick up subtle tells and can be compensated by making solid calculations.

Hand reading is a combination of math and psychology. I'm not sure in which box to put 'detecting patterns', probably somewhere in between. Some players may be better at using these patterns to figure out what the odds are that villain has him beat (math), others may be more tuned-in to what villain's state of mind and how this is affecting his play, or how to interpret subtle tells (psychology). The best players are the ones that can do both, but being an expert in one of them will probably be enough to beat most games.

So if i were to say to you, that judging by the opponents stack I justified that while not getting the correct pot odds, I had the correct implied odds to make the call, and therefore called. That would not be a donk play. If i posted just that statement after a hand history no one would say donk, but say the word feel and people say donk. The idea of implied odds is based on a feeling. Its mearly an Idea, the only mathmatical premise of the entire situation is the amount you have determined, however the idea is still based on feeling.

I agree with this statement, you do need to factor math in for multiway pots. I think reading still comes into play in this situation.

This is one of the best explanations I have read yet, thanks. I agree completely with this. I am not saying that as a feel player I dismiss math, i mean thats impossible for me to do. However the advanced math teqniques that I have attempted to incorporate into my game has hurt me at times. I do believe that I have made up for this with my ability to spot tells and betting patterns and personality traits.

From hearing Phil galfond's interview at cash play , he said a good player are good at three different things,: logic, physcology, and math. physcology is probably the "feel" what players are talking about. sorry for spelling.

Right. And detecting patterns is part of logic.

How can you guys respond seriously after a comment like this?

Obv there are "feel" players, but that usually means one of two things. 1) you're able to pick up on physical tells and such much better than some people, and are adding variables to the hand that have no mathematical value. or 2) You just arent as good at verbalizing why you're doing something so you fall back on the "feel" crutch

Saying you get a "feeling" that you're going to catch a card is the definition of being a donk

A feeling like "my card will come" is surely donkeystyle, but what op said about a feeling for implied odds is surely correct. especially in live games (but online /w betsizing/timimg tells too) estimating whether or not u have implieds is sth u feel as well as it is sth u "calculate" by bordering villains handrange.
I guess both maths and feeling is important for poker player, especially considering that all mathematical review of Hands is targeted on getting a feeling for a similar situation in the future. Or do calculate your ev for every decision while playing? It's rather estimations made from a mix of your experience in that certain kind of situation and your feeling for things like tableflow, image etc.

"feel" is only a justification for going against mathematical odds

Not necessarily. Even in Limit Holdem, which is obv a game of much more mathematical accuracy needed, timing tells play can play big role, especially on high stakes. Now please give me a hint how to mathematically evaluate a timimg tell?!

The way you worded it in your post was that you could "feel" whether cards would come or not. If you were talking about implied odds you didn't make it very clear.

math is more important than feel in my books

Taken from the book, Mathematics of Poker: Kind of a feel vs. math player type paragraph.

"In the late 1970s and early 1980s, the bond an option markets were dominated by traders who had learned their craft by experience. They believed that there experience and intuition for trading were a renewable edge; this is, that they could make money just as they always had by continuing to trade as they always had. By the mid-1990s, a revolution in trading had occurred; the old school grizzled traders had been replaced by a new breed of quantitative analysts, applying mathematics to the "art" of trading and making of it a science. Similarly in poker, for decades, the highest level of pokers have been dominated by players who have learned the game by playing it, "road gamblers" who have cultivated intuition for the game and are adept at reading other players' hands from betting patterns and physical tells. Over the last five to ten years, a whole new breed has risen to prominence within the poker community. Applying the tools of computer science and mathematics to poker and sharing the information across the Internet, these players have challenged many of the assumptions that underlie traditional approaches to the game. One of the most important features of this new approach is a reliance on quantitative analysis and the application of mathematics to the game."

honestly this is not a very good topic until you define the term feel. Also as to he implied odds "feel" you really mean estimating. You estimate whether you have the implied odds. If you're good at it, that's just being good at math in your head and not having to explicitly spell it out in words. To be good at poker you have to have both, you have to be able to get inside the other players' heads and feel what they're trying to do, and you also have to understand the math and the logic of the effect of different lines in different situations. Also, the more and more you play the more the math becomes second nature and more of a "feel" to you. So you talk to a good player and he tells you he doesn't really use math, that's just because he doesn't need to. He already knows about how big stack sizes have to be to peel with an oesd, he already knows about how much the opponent has to have air in his range to peel with A high, just little things like that where it would take a long time to explain the math and the logic behind a play to a beginning player but where this "feel" player just already understands it. Then some donk sees him play and is like "I'm gonna be a feel player like him" and ignores the math, just does what he feels like, and wonders why he sucks.

Because when you talk to a very good player, not one of them claims to be a good feel player. 99% of players who claim to be good feel players can't beat much more than 1/2 live. Show me one good player, live or online, that is totally ignorant of math and doesn't have any concept of implied odds, odds, fold equity, etc. Sure they may not call it that but anyone who is good understands the mathematical concepts that drive the game. Because most of the time when someone talks about being a good feel player the first thing I think of is I hope this guy will play me HU because he likely has no idea wtf he's doing at the poker table and just gets by because he plays in games where everyone else sucks more than he does.

Cliff notes:
- define feel
- poker is a combination of math and feel
- anyone who claims to be a purely feel player probably sucks and I'd love to play them HU

agree.
When i refer to feeling here, i mean having a feeling for the maths one learned to apply to the game as well as to a feeling for tells one has picked up by experience.

Its just that there are lots of (partly good, winning) players out there who know well how to do the maths, but dont develop a feeling for the situations theyre in. Those play kind of formulaic Poker working out fine up to a certain degree, but are quickly overstrained with new situations or opponents who do not quite fit their understanding of the game. They usually play rather tight, evading Situations which are marginal or difficult to look through mathematically and therefore are easy to exploit.

The feeling i refer to here, is a very abstract ability to adopt to new situations by intuitively transfering a knowledge and experience from one situation to another which dont seem to have much in common at first view. Of course this is more a lo
gical thing, nothing emotional at all, but it's an intuition and not clearly describable in terms of math or logic. Even more, i believe any try to actually express this would often make it seem completely irrational although the assumption made was right.

This especially applies to things like gameflow, when you just feel whether your opponent is strong or weak, based on level-thinking you achieve by putting yourself in the position of your opponent. Applying such with a satisfying reliability, can only be achieved by great experience and an empathic skill you whether have or will never learn.

I stopped listening to my gut after I found out it had **** for brains.

If a player says they played a hand because those cards had been showing up a lot recently, they are a donkey. If they say they called to hit their draw because they felt it was coming, they are a donkey. If they say they folded the best hand because they knew it was going to be out-drawn, they are a donkey. If they raise because they had a "feeling" that their opponent was weak and would fold to a raise, they might just be a savant and be perhaps be quite good at poker. The math guy might know a guys range in a spot, but make the wrong decision based on the actual cards he holds, where they guy who plays based on feel might make the wrong decision based on a guys range in a given spot, but make the right play based on his actual cards. Is it possible that there are players out there that are able to "read" others better than we can, certainly. They might be worse at figuring out the exact math of the their outs vs pot odds, but they might be far better at knowing wether a guy is sitting near the top or the bottom of his range. If you as a player had the simple ability to know when your opponent would be most likely to fold to a raise, would you ignore it based on your pot odds?

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