Yeah, in the variation I posted. This thread is about the fried liver attack isn't it? Too many non-fried-liver two knights defense lines cluttering it up imo. It's only the fried liver attack after the Nxf7 sac, at which point the rest of my line is basically forced, until white's ninth move. I usually play 9. 0-0 there, but Qe4, Bb3, and d4 are all also interesting, so I was wondering which you usually use, since you indicated earlier in the thread that you like to play Nxf7 like me (but unlike most other people).

How? The only games I can find are ones where black gets crushed, though I don't have a chess database or anything.

I'm still curious why White isn't always playing the Fried Liver, as (apparently) White is solid even without Black making any questionable moves like Nxd4.

I've scored many quick wins with the rare but trickier than it looks secret weapon 4...Nxe4?!!
Many of my opponents continued 5.Nxf7?? when White is completely lost after 5...Qh4!


(please keep this move secret)

White can win a piece after 6 d4 Nxd4 7 c3 b5 8 Bxd5 Qxd5 9 f3 c5 10 cxd4 cxd4 but the resulting position is very unclear.

Yeah White does win a piece but the resulting position is unclear..

Looking at other moves, I don't think it would be fun to play Black's position after 8.Bd3 h6 9.Nf7 Kf7 10.cd, but maybe the computers find a defense.

It doesn't really matter, I'm still not going to play Nxd5 in a tournament. As a general rule it makes sense to avoid lines where the main question is whether or not Black is lost by force.

Black definitely gets crushed more often than not, according to databases, but that's mostly an artifact that if the Nxf7 version of the line is reached, it almost certainly means white is far better prepped. Black players who are well versed in opening knowledge will almost never play Nxd5 in the first place, whereas many white players consider this a pet line and know it inside and out. Given how sharp and dangerous of a line it is, that preparation is extremely valuable. White's excellent stats in databases are not an accurate measure of the true value of the position.

I'll search my databases and see if I can get back to you with any examples of this line from master play, so you can see what some of black's resources against Nxf7 are. If I can find any, that should demonstrate the relative equality of the position... when played by good players who are both comfortable in the line.

I don't think you'll find any, it really is dubious at best for black.

His premise is wrong though:
"So my question is if there is no strong answer to this series of moves, isn't the Two Knights Defense (3. ... Nf6) a losing proposition for Black?"

He's assuming that 4.Ng5 is very good for White, when in fact at the highest levels it's been almost completely replaced by 4.d3 simply because of the move 5...Na5, which he obviously hasn't studied enough.

I found a couple expert level cases of the line, but no master games. And even in the six expert games I found, black was mostly confused and quickly crushed, except for one case where white missed the key follow-up to a bad black move, and lost.

I still don't think the fried liver (after Nxf7) is anything more than a minor advantage for white, certainly not a crushing or easily winning edge, if black plays sharply enough. The problem is the only way to get to that line is the dubious Nxd5, which you will almost never see at high levels. It's because they're afraid of d4 though, not because they're afraid of Nxf7.