1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nf6
4. Ng5 d5
5. ed ...

From my searching on the internet it seems like 5. ... Nxd5 is fairly standard, but I can't find any games where Black isn't basically being crushed. It also doesn't seem like 5. ... Na5 is particularly strong either. White also seems to have very strong moves like d4 which supposedly give a clear advantage.

So my question is if there is no strong answer to this series of moves, isn't the Two Knights Defense (3. ... Nf6) a losing proposition for Black?

actually 5...Nxd5 is not standard, and might be a losing move. The Fried Liver is not much fun to play as Black against a well-prepared White, though it might be OK with computer defence. 6. d4 is probably even better for White.

5...Na5 is the main move, I don't know what the current theoretical status of it is (the theoretical status of lines like this develops mostly in correspondence games) but in practice it has to be fine. 5...Nd4 or 5...b5 are also playable. The wildly complicated 4...Bc5 is also possible, I am pretty sure this is not objectively good though, but OK in practice at most levels because Black will be better prepared. Maybe I am wrong and there is a simple route to a clear advantage for White, but I don't know it.

I doubt 3...Nf6 is losing by force, but if you can't find any line that suits you after Ng5, then maybe you should play ...Bc5 instead.

If you are on ICC, Dan Heisman has a 30-minute video in his archive dedicated to this exact line.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed Nxd5 6.d4!
is considered very strong for White, probably winning. I've never seen a decent defence.

6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3 Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 is not so clear in my opinion, although it's basically beside the point because of 6.d4.

5...Na5 is clearly the best move - I think theory gives White a slight edge, but there is plenty of play in the position. There are also the unusual moves 5...b5 or 5...Nd4 which are interesting - they might be playable in Blitz and at the amateur level, but are probably not good enough for high level play. The line 4...Bc5!? is probably in the same category.

Also the line 4.d4 for White (instead of Ng5) does not give White anything and has in fact been analyzed out to equality if I recall correctly.

Hey guys, I just solved chess. Black is lost after d5.

try this:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1224609

But after 4...Bc5, Isn't taking on f7 with the Bishop supposed to be good for White?

Play 4-Na5 or avoid all this **** althogether with 3-Bc5

5. Bxf7+ then what???

that is also incredibly complicated though, if you know it better you are going to pick up a lot of points with Black even in the lines that are meant to be better for White. Yeah, in modern chess you aren't supposed to give up a pawn and misplace your king in return for a very nebulous lead in development, but I believe even Anand lost as White in this line.

I think the current main try against 4...d5 5. ed Nxd5?! 6. d4 is to play Bb4+ c3 Be7, with the point being that after Nxf7 Kx Qf3+ Ke6 White can't play Nc3. As far as I know, the correspondence players still think this is viable, though I wouldn't expect to see it played in the next OTB World Championship.

actually I found the Anand game, White was way better in the whole game but blundered. But it doesn't matter, the point is that for 99% of people it's still a playable line.

Ive been experimenting with 5. qf3 in response to na5, I think it gives white a pawn in return for misplaced pieces for black and a major advantage in an endgame.

6.Qf3 after 5-Na5 is impossible due to 6-Nxc4 so I assume you mean 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3, rigth?
Dont understand which endgame you talk about either.

I play this line with white, I think black is doing fine after 5. ... Na5. 5. ... Nxd5 is pretty bad and although some people seem to prefer 6. d4 to 6 Nxf7, I think black is already in trouble after Nxf7 if white knows how to continue. Standard plan is castle Qe4 d4 and f4 during or after which black's position usually is going to crash.

I've always played ...b5 here

6 .. Nxd4 7 c3 b5 8 Bd3 h6 And then 9 Qh5 or 9 Nxf7 black can most likely draw. But who wants to play a line where you are only playing for a draw and 1 mistake leads to a loss.

I play the bishop sac exclusively against the fried liver. Players over 1600fics standard usually stay out of trouble. The rest have a very hard time with it. If I were better at the endgame I'd probably score better using a more defensive approach, but I'm not so I just throw everything I have at you.

The fried liver attack is my absolute favorite opening as white. I love when people play 5. ... Nxd5, and while I know that 6. d4 is objectively better, I always play the much more fun 6. Nxf7. I love the position after:

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nf6
4. Ng5 d4
5. exd4 Nxd4?!
6. Nxf7?! Kxf7
7. Qf3+ Kd6
8. Nc3 Ncb4

There's just so much going on and so many options for attacks and counterattacks.

this is true for so many people, every second fourteen year old aspiring chess player seems to know the ins and outs of the Fried Liver. So it's not a good spot to play a dubious line as Black, something like the Traxler is always going to do better and be more fun to play even if objectively they are equally bad.

I think the fried liver is perfectly fine for black.

Nxd5 is definitely bad for black, because instead of the fried liver, white can just play d4 with a solid advantage. After Nxd7 though, it's pretty even. Just super weird and aggressive on both ends, with tons of pitfalls.

Uitje, I'm curious, what is your ninth move as white, in the fried liver?

What moves lead to a solid advantage for white after 6 d4 Nxd4 ?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...26&postcount=4 Ninth move with white? In what variation? The one BobJoeJim posted? I think both Qe4 and O-O are fine.

after 6...Nxd4? 7.c3 White wins a piece.

Oops there's b5 there, I fail.