You might benefit from contemplating the following essay.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...moralist/?_r=0

I think generic moralism in the form of minimalist ethics has problems as far as being a meaningful ethical theory is concerned. I encourage you to think more deeply about what you're trying to say, and to explore those thoughts with closer attention to the details.

I don't disagree with anything in there really. It's just the way I stated what I said was the simplest way to convey what I wanted.

I was exploring this that you said - "Merely not calling God by name is not enough to hinder the sincerity of your request, and the faith you are showing. This "ignorance", for lack of a better word, can almost be beneficial, because you're stripping away your ego and pride, and are calling to whichever God happens to exist,."

You seem to have an explanation in mind, I'd like to understand it. So, if I say 'god' and I sincerely believe that there might be one in a way that doesn't rule out it being your god, I'm good? But if I use a specific name, or idea of one of the bewildering choice of gods on offer, and I picked the wrong one, I'm screwed?

Then how do you explain that Christians are in a minority and that more people don't believe in Christ than do? Your god is doing a poor job of correcting people, or you're wrong. If there are no gods, then what we see is exactly what we would expect to see. If your god is real, then some very curious things are defying explanation.

You seem fixated on this whole idea that if you try really hard (genuinely and sincerely) to believe in god, then you'll 'find' god and come to believe in him (and conversely that if you don't, you can't and won't, as you've accused me of), but how can you not see how intellectually feeble that is? I strongly doubt that you would behave this way in any other context and would simply see it for the trick that it is. Coca cola would like you to believe that their product is 'the best', so I suggest to you that if you simply try to believe that, if you open your mind to it, you will find that it is true. That work for you? Have faith in Coke NR, it's all that it takes.

I think you're making a huge mistake here. Even if your god is real, it doesn't follow that anything you think you know is true. You could be following a system entirely of human creation, intended purely to control and exploit. You could be nothing but a victim of human nature. This could all be true and your god exist. It's actually a position that I'm quite comfortable with and would have no quarrel with a theist who agreed with it. They'd technically be a deist and I think deism is perfectly reasonable.

I'm not doing that, so let's not go there. The vast majority of Christians reject the OT. I think that's reasonable too.

That wasn't what I was asking. You believe that that OT is factually correct and I'm asking you how you justify following a god that could kill thousands of children and cause vast suffering with plagues just to persuade one man to change his mind, after god gave him free will and the ability to think for himself. Not only does this make no sense but it's capricious and viscous almost beyond belief. How do you resolve that to yourself?


I think it's one of the most common reasons that people are attracted to religion. Comfort. Don't confuse this with the most common reasons they then offer for their belief, of which I think that personal experience is the most common.

MB, you talk a lot of sense my friend

This thread has the best title ever.

For me the bible is a cracking read, god is certainly a very special character. For someone to create "everything" and then create light suggests he managed to create "everything" in the dark.

What a man.

You're "good" in that you're being sincere, yeah. All I'm saying is that if you're looking for God, and you are a genuine seeker, and you call him "by the wrong name" it is not enough to hinder your prayer.

I could be wrong, God could not be "doing a good job", or people may not want to listen or they may not want to give God a chance.

Coke is a preference, so I don't think it's best example, although I get your point. God wishes to be found. You won't find him if you don't look, and you won't look if you don't want him to exist.

You think if God exists it's a mistake to make him a priority?

There's lots of way to look at it, if you choose to take it as literal, he's not just changing one man's mind, he's saving a Nation of people from enslavement. We've discussed this before at length, actually, death is not the same to God as it is to us, especially those who believe death is the state of not existing.

Maybe, people have all sorts of reasons. I have found it quite trying, personally.

You choose coke/pepsi/other based on what your friends and family drink, what's most popular locally, your personal taste, brand appeal..

Sound familiar?

Yeah Ricky Gervais is funny. Yeah the bible is a cracking read don't think God is a man or anything like a man. I doubt the God described in the bible exists.
I guess it depends on how you define god.

But there's a limit to how wrong you can be and still get away with it? That's what 'you shall worship no other god before me' seems to suggest. So I think that your 'if it's sincere and you're simply praying to whatever god might be real' hypothesis only works for you because you believe that your god is real. From a perspective of not knowing which of the 4000+ gods are real, it's meaningless, it doesn't help me at all.

I think that this is all pure speculation on your part, you simply have no way to know that what you're saying about how your god thinks is true. More than that, I think it's simply wishful thinking and that you intend it to be encouraging to non-believers. Can you see that it only is if you accept that your god is real?

I think you have to admit error in what you said here or accept that your god is doing a poor job based on the evidence all around you. 2 billion Muslims have taken the wrong path, this is undeniable evidence that your god doesn't in fact steer people to the right path (you said "if a seeker is genuine, God will correct him if he is going down the wrong path") you must believe then that Muslims aren't genuine in their search for god, and again, you can only believe this if you start with the premise that your god is real otherwise how can you know that they're not genuine, because they ended up at the wrong god? That's simply your assumption.


I think that this is the weakest of your arguments and you're missing the point here. Is Coke the best soft drink in the world? All you have to do to see that it is, is open yourself to the possibility, to look for that possibly, seek and yee shall find that Coke is the best. It worked for your religious views, why wouldn't it work for Coke? I know you're not genuine in your search because I know that Coke is the best drink in the world, so until you agree with me, I know you're not really trying to believe it.

Of course not, I'm saying that if god existed, or didn't, that a religion could still be completely fabricated and would of course seek to perpetuate itself, and that the rules that exist in your religion are exactly what we would expect to see. We know this because we see them in many other contexts, ones that you don't believe to be true, for example, the Islamic instructions of the same type. Those you dismiss as the workings of a religion seeking to perpetuate itself. Take any other religious example you like, they all do the same thing.

This didn't answer my question. Your god killed many thousands of innocent children to change the mind of one man (who in other version he caused to deny Moses in the first place). I asked how you can follow such a god, how you justify it to yourself?

The same man to whom your god supposedly gave the moral instructions for humanity, is also responsible for ordering the deaths of innocent women and children who were his prisoners. Does this cause you any problems?

The tough question is which god to believe in? If religion is your thing how do you decide?

For those who don't believe simply don't believe in god, for those who do opt for a certain god make the decision to not believe in the hundreds of other gods out there. #ToughDecision

I started my search by saying "I don't know" and then took it upon myself to investigate various religions until I realised something which can't be explained in words. What I will say is you won't find God in any holy book or bible.

You're mixing up many ideas here. There is a difference in asking God for help, and having your prayer answered because you were humble and honest, and between putting your faith in a specific God and worshipping him alone.

I wasn't talking about the latter, all I am saying is that God will hear your sincere requests. If you are seeking God, and you strip away everything you know and just pray to "God", without having to label him, I believe he will hear you.

It's what I believe from experience, I have no ulterior motive.

Your conclusion is not a necessary one. God can be willing for people to know him and for false religions to confuse people. God did not create all these different beliefs, people did. It is hardly God's fault.

If I fool you into believing in a false God, is it God's fault?

You can't compare a personal preference to whether or not God exists. The belief that something exists can't be compared to the belief that something is better.

That's all fine, but it all depends if God exists or not, and if he does, there is nothing inherently wrong in a system which puts God first.

I don't think that death is that bad from the perspective of God. It's painful to see people die, but it is where God intends us all to be. Death is not the end, so I don't think that a scenario where people had to die, however unfortunate, is a travesty in the long run, because it is part of God's plan.

Your claim, as I understand it, is that if you sincerely and genuinely make an appeal to any god that might exist, but don't specify the 'wrong' god, that Jehovah god will probably accept you. So if I sincerely believe in the wrong god I'm screwed, but if I sincerely make a generic god appeal, I'll probably be ok. No?

No, after all, this is what has happened to you, Allah has allowed you to be fooled. Of course I'm being facetious to make a point. Actually you said something that is wrong, makes your god look like he can't do what you said, or claims that 2 billion Muslims (not to mention Hindus and Sikhs etc) aren't sincere in their beliefs, but you won't admit it.

Of perhaps you have a different way of interpreting "if a seeker is genuine, God will correct him if he is going down the wrong path"?

Fine let's use a different example then if you're going to be so pedantic about this. Let's use Islam. I suggest to you that you can never find Allah because you have closed your mind to the possibility that he is real and that Jehovah/Yaweh isn't. The only reason that you haven't found Allah is that your world view discounts the possibility that Allah is real, so it's virtually impossible for you to find him, you never will until you accept the reality of him, then of course you will find him. So, find Allah by sincerely searching for and accepting the reality of Allah and allow him to come into your heart.

Convinced by that?


Never said that there was, I'm simply pointing out that even if god didn't exist, or if he did, you personally could still be following a completely fake, man made system and it would contain exactly the elements that we would expect to see in such a system. If we didn't see them, it would be far more problematic to my position that Christianity is man made fabrication, but we do. The fact that 40% of the 10 moral commandments are about worshipping god, and not morality, is part of the same argument.

So, you have no moral problem with Moses ordering the deaths of helpless women and children prisoners and the mass rape of other female (presumably young enough to still be virgins) prisoners? I guess then that you can't have a moral problem with anyone who commits an atrocity in the name of god?

You also have no problem with god causing huge suffering, and the deaths of thousands of Egyptian children, purely to change the mind of the Pharaoh after giving him the free will required to defy god in the first place? Why didn't he simply change his mind by using his powers?

I very much doubt that your experience told you all this, that you could deduce what your beliefs and actions should be, what god is like, and how you should connect with him, just from an experience or experiences.

Depends on the appeal, and depends what you mean by accept, but yes.

Not necessarily, and depends what you're appealing.

I'm not claiming that the doctrine of salvation is one where you make some vague appeal to any deity, I think I've been pretty clear - your sincere prayers can be effective, that God may hear you and answer you.

To begin with, lots of Muslims end up believing in Christ. Remember that video about the Muslim who claimed that Christ revealed himself after he genuinely pleaded to know the truth?

I don't know how it all works, perhaps it is unfair that there are many religions and not all of them point to the real God. Again, that is not God's own fault, it is ours.

The reason it's not pedantic is that if I believe Coke is the best, then it is the best. The truth is not objective like whether or not God is real.

Yes, I am convinced by that. If I wasn't confident in Christ, and if I had not already investigated other Gods to be sure it isn't my bias at play, then I would worry. Remember I did not start as a Christian, I started as agnostic, and I simply began praying.

As far as I can tell, it's only a problem if God does not exist.

It's not a pretty picture, but I believe it had to be done and that God can remain just.

Your complaint of free will is strange though. You have free will to do wrong, but that doesn't make your actions any less culpable.

Just that God hears you when you're sincere. More specifically, when you honestly cry out to God in desperation, he answers you.

What happens to an atheist that prays a generic prayer while crashing in a plane?
What happens to an atheist who doesn't?

Hopefully in both cases the atheist dies. Only joking!

The answer is nothing happens because that's not how "pray" works.

Depends on the prayer, the faith shown, if God reveals himself, etc. Maybe nothing happens, maybe they hear from God, I don't know.

I doubt your experiences told you that either.

Eh, I can't have epistemic certainty, if that's what you mean.

No, I mean, lets say I have experience of meeting someone and saying hello as we walk past each other. This doesnt tell me what the person is going to have for dinner. I guess you may claim that there was other evidence in your experience that helped you form the beliefs you have now, but since you have been very sketchy on the details, I am not inclined to take that into account.

Assume a sincere prayer. What is the difference in the end result for the praying and non-praying atheist?

Really? I think there are millions of people throughout history who would disagree with you on that one.

Or perhaps he answered them, but the answer was "No."

You're presupposing (still) that prayer is highly transactional in nature.

With that said, I suspect it's more likely for the praying atheist to have a salvific encounter than for a non-praying atheist to have one. If that's the case, then there's a salvific difference in the end result between the two.