A post I just made in SMP gave me the idea for this thread.

I have a few questions about this subject.


First of all, it appears that animals go to heaven also.

- Ephesians 1:10


- Isaiah 11:6-9


- Isaiah 34:16, 17

source
http://www.thebibleandanimals.org/Ar...andanimals.htm


And also, for formality, it's made very clear that homosexuality is not tolerated in the bible.

Old testament:

- Leviticus 18:22


- Leviticus 20:13


New testament:

- Romans 1:26


- Romans 1:27

source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bib..._homosexuality


In these new testament verses it is made clear that homosexuality is unnatural. Unnatural obviously meaning against nature.



Many species of animals outside of humans have been observed engaging in homosexual behavior.

A few examples.


Bonobo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...and_other_apes


Bottlenose dolphins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...enose_dolphins


Elephants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...mals#Elephants



My first question is, the bible makes it clear that homosexuality is both sin and unnatural, but homosexuality is found all over nature. What caused this discrepancy?

Many theists believe homosexuality is a choice, is it a choice that humans alone make, or do animals also choose it?

Do animals that engage in homosexual behavior go to hell? Do they accept jesus as their lord and savior and find forgiveness resulting in acceptance into heaven? Or do they get a free pass and only humans are punished for their (natural) homosexual behavior?

My final question on this subject I suppose is, do you indeed believe that homosexuality is an unnatural sin, and if not, why do you dissent from the bible on this?

Those 3 verses don't prove that animals will go to heaven. Or do you think it really is meant with "all creation" also trees, water, air, plants, bacteria's , diseases etc.? No, animals do not have souls, thus when they die, they are dead, and that's it... (at least that's what I've understood from the NT and Church etc.)

KJV on Ephesians 1:10
" 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: "

Which looks to me as kinda different. It is the purpose of God to put all things together under Christ.

Isaiah 11:6-9, again, not proof that animals go to heaven too.
Isaiah 34:16, 17, also not.

If you believe it does, OK, let's keep it at that.

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When the Bible refers to nature, it is different than the nature you think of. Nature does not mean, "what you see in reality". No it means, against the purpose that God meant.

I think this can be explained by the fall of man, all of the earth was corrupted.
Yes you can see homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Likewise, you can see murder in the animal kingdom. Likewise you can see all sorts of things which are natural, but immoral, according to the Christian standards.

I don't know if animals can rationally choose what they do like human beings. I don't think so though.

Yes I believe the act of homosexuality is sinful. Depending on the definition of nature, according to the 'scientific' or the Christian one, it can be natural or unnatural.

^
lol very very funny

Well, I read the verse you posted, and I reread the verses I posted, and I have no idea how anyone could come to the conclusion that according to the versus, animals do NOT go to heaven.

I even read the wikipedia page on dispensation of the fulness of times and it doesn't mention animals not going to heaven or anything regarding animals.

As an observer, yes. I believe these verses are saying that animals go to heaven.

Where in the bible does it differentiate between man and animals and man has a soul but animals do not?



wait, natural as in the purpose of god or natural as in nature?



Do you believe humans choose to be gay? If so, why do humans choose it but animals do not?

i believe its natures way of culling the herd, its like a charles darwin sceince proven.

That doesn't work because personal and societal bigotry makes gays feel guilty for being gay and they sometimes end up in marriages and have kids.

Or option nr1

(you know what i'm talking about)

So natural has a goal now?

The animal world is ripe with murder, cannibalism, rape, and a host of other things that we feel are morally detestable. Should we change our views on those as well?

Who said that nature was perfect? Not the bible. Your argument is baseless.

Wait, so the bible says that homosexuality is unnatural, yet we actually see it occur naturally, and this does not in any way inform us that the bible is inaccurate on the topic?

Thats the second time i have heard animals murder itt. But doesn't murder take freewill and or the conscious decision to kill or not to kill.

Are you guys saying they are not robots?

I really hope this means you agree that everyones religious beliefs are opinion and not fact, including yours

do you believe that neandertals were human and had souls? if not when did the change soul/no sould occur in our evolutionary past?
if you dont believe in evo. you dont have to answer - yet.
we can wait till we are actually able to recreate neandertals from DNA.

OP Quote:
This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head.
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Why is this heaven? Haven't you ever heard of the Millenial Kingdom?

Animals have souls. It says it in many passages of the bible. But a soul and a spirit aren't the same thing.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens.

Gen 1:21 And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. And it was so.

Gen 1:30 and to every animal of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth on the earth, in which is a living soul, every green herb for food. And it was so.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought {them} to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name.

Gen 9:10 and with every living soul which is with you, fowl as well as cattle, and all the animals of the earth with you, of all that has gone out of the ark -- every animal of the earth.

Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the sign of the covenant that I set between me and you and every living soul that is with you, for everlasting generations:

Gen 9:15 and I will remember my covenant which is between me and you and every living soul of all flesh; and the waters shall not henceforth become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living soul of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Lev 11:10 but all that have not fins and scales in seas and in rivers, of all that swarm in the waters, and of every living soul which is in the waters -- they shall be an abomination unto you.

Rev 8:9 and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea which had life [soul] died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Perhaps you should.

When you have a religious view that something is a sin according to god, and animals exhibit the same behaviors, then perhaps your view shouldn't be "zomg god says this stuff is sin and the work of the devil so I better not do it or not repent cause then I'll go to hell for all eternity."

But perhaps your view should be something like "this occurs in nature as well, so why should we blindly put faith in the bible and fear possible repercussions in the afterlife? Maybe the bible isn't really the word of god, but a giant bull**** work of fiction. Maybe my religion isn't great, but a scourge upon the progress of science and mankind."

ahh. This story is getting good!






Then what is the difference between a soul and a spirit?


And I have not heard of the Millenial Kingdom, but from everything I have heard about christianity, I'm obviously skeptical.

FYP.

I can't convince a non-Christian anyway. What's the point in that. He will keep his opinion because he found a way Christian morality is not consistent. Do you think he will concede?

I once asked the question where does grass go when it dies and i got laughed at

Wait, are you suggesting that murder, cannibalism, and rape are ok, and we should just go with it? I must be reading something wrong here.

There's a difference between plants and animals.

You can google the Millenial Kingdom and get a million hits. But its the 1,000 year reign that commences after the 2nd Coming of Christ. Can I definitively prove animals don't go to heaven: no. But I don't think there is a verse that says they do. Afaik everyone goes into the dust until they are resurrected but then again we don't know how God bridges time once that occurs. If somebody finds a verse then please show it. Of course some people think and are writing books that animals go to heaven. I saw Sylvia Browne had one out (All Pets Go to Heaven is the title) but I don't trust Sylvia Browne so I didn't even look at it.

But the spirit is given by God:http://becomingone.org/nm/nm22.htm

I think hundreds of years of philosophizing the scriptures and that famous verse of Christ's has caused people to think spirit and soul are the same thing: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

It's a non-issue because animals very rarely keep the sabbath holy.

Animals steal from each other all the time too. Do you also think the commandment: "Thou shalt not steal" is a natural discrepancy too?

If a severly ******ed person who has little to none in the way of reason or intellect kills someone else, we don't convict that person of a crime.

If bonobos had the same faculties as a human...homosexuality would be sinful for them as well.