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Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they

11-19-2012 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotReady
I grew up in the deep South and from about 10 years old was a confirmed atheist, even though going to churches such as Southern Baptist and conservative Presbyterian and Methodist - Sunday school, etc. When I became a Christian it was in response to an independent evangelist in a long one-on-one discussion in which I heard the Word of God for the first time - it was then I first understood the Gospel message. I had not long before that decided that atheism was likely wrong and that there was something higher than the natural universe. I think that decision was likely the kind of response described in Romans 1 - that God reveals himself, makes himself known, through the things that have been made - for me it was the starry skies above and thunderstorms (not the moral law within). So I believe God was acting throughout my conversion, which included a kind of preliminary theism followed by Christianity.

I believe all genuine Christian, saving faith is in response to God's activity on the individual. No one deduces that Christianity is likely true and then accepts Christ on sheer intellect. Conversion is a response to the call of God. It is that call that is the real evidence for a Christian, and that is why it isn't blind faith. Abraham is called the father of faith - but remember, when he responded to God he knew who was talking to him, so his faith was not blind, but rested on evidence he already had.
Well stated and cool story. I agree that Christianity is partly deduction but also partly just God revealing himself. I also agree people cannot become Christians based on intellectual endevaor alone.
Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Quote
11-19-2012 , 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
Its not just our preference that a specific religion's god be willing to accept it if we assume he exists and are happy that he does. It is how a just god must feel. For all we know God will send everybody to hell who doesn't like jazz. But no religion thinks that God is like that. But if they think he is not capricious they are supposed to realize that he would forgive someone who reluctantly thinks that he is an underdog to exist.

Not Ready gets confused when he talks about people who reject God. He is thinking of those in the bible who were quite sure he existed but rejected/disobeyed him anyway. I don't believe the bible ever talks about people who WISH that God or Jesus stories are true but doubt them for purely technical reasons. Yet in spite of their doubt they ASSUME the God /Jesus stories are true and behave accordingly. To thiik that this would not be good enough for a just god is just stupid.
IMO God allows for more doubt than you are thinking he does.
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11-20-2012 , 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
IMO God allows for more doubt than you are thinking he does.
I think that God allows for LOTS of doubt, if he exists. Probably more than YOU think he does. But there is a paradox if the God that we believe is more likely than any other, is one that doesn't allow for this doubt. It forces that hypothetical person to think that the most likely end for him is not to be saved, even though he is willing to assume the truth of this God and behave and worship accordingly.

The fact that a God would allow for such a situation to occur would be called by most people "unjust". Of course you get out of this paradox instantly if you are right about God. All I want is for Not Ready to agree with you.

(Another way out is that God intervenes. He sees that you make him a 3-2 dog against the field and that spurs him on to give you a little more evidence that turns him into 2-5.)
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11-20-2012 , 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bunny
it is irrelevant what you think "just" means .
Me, yes. People in general, no. When people say that God is just they mean by their definition, not his. They may not have all the information, but they have to believe that if they did, they would agree about the justness. To say otherwise is nonsensical. Are you disputing that?
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11-20-2012 , 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
No No No. I totally get that. I am talking about the CONVERSE. I am saying that some religions seem to claim that even if I met all the OTHER criteria, I am screwed if my intellectual "calculations" forced me to think that the stories of a particular religion that separated it from each of the various other religions was less than 50% to be true. Why is this so hard to understand?
I might agree with this criticism as a general and hypothetical position to hold. But I don't see how you can apply it to Christianity. The OTHER criteria (trusting in Christ) require you to believe stories that are particular to Christianity and that separate it from other religions. How would you justify genuine belief and faith in the story of Christ but think the other stories, which have the same source, are less than 50% to be true? Christ himself told some of these stories, for instance the reality of Adam and Eve - so how could you trust him for salvation if you can't believe he's telling the truth about events in the Old Testament?

Having said that, I'm not aware of anything in the Bible that says if you allegorize the Genesis account of creation, for instance, but genuinely believe in and accept Christ, that you would not be saved. There are some people who at least claim they are in that camp - for instance, theistic evolutionists. I think the Catholic church is willing to allow for a broad application of mythology and figure of speech to parts of the Bible that traditionally are considered historical fact.

I have a problem with that position but I think what counts is the gospel - how one interprets other parts of the Bible are generally not critical to the salvation criteria - at least it isn't so stated in the Bible, though some Christians might say otherwise.
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11-20-2012 , 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by NotReady
I might agree with this criticism as a general and hypothetical position to hold. But I don't see how you can apply it to Christianity. The OTHER criteria (trusting in Christ) require you to believe stories that are particular to Christianity and that separate it from other religions. How would you justify genuine belief and faith in the story of Christ but think the other stories, which have the same source, are less than 50% to be true?
You have some kind of mental block as far as understanding the point I am trying to make. Even bunny understands it. I am postulating a person who thinks that that the actual story of Christ (for example) is slightly more likely to be untrue than true. He doesn't have what I think you mean by genuine belief in it. But he thinks it is more likely than each the specific individual stories put forth by other specific religions or atheism (taken seperately). Furthermore he loves that story, hopes it is true, and assumes it is true as far as his actions and worship is concerned. I think that only the nuttier Christian sects are certain that such a person has not satisfied God's requirements.
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11-20-2012 , 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
You have some kind of mental block as far as understanding the point I am trying to make. Even bunny understands it. I am postulating a person who thinks that that the actual story of Christ (for example) is slightly more likely to be untrue than true. He doesn't have what I think you mean by genuine belief in it. But he thinks it is more likely than each the specific individual stories put forth by other specific religions or atheism (taken seperately). Furthermore he loves that story, hopes it is true, and assumes it is true as far as his actions and worship is concerned. I think that only the nuttier Christian sects are certain that such a person has not satisfied God's requirements.
If he doesn't have genuine belief, not to mention repentance and trust, then it is mainstream theology that says he isn't saved. Nothing nutty about it.

Edit: As far as the mental block, you said he met all the OTHER criteria, which for Christianity, means genuine trust in Christ.
Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Quote
11-20-2012 , 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by NotReady
If he doesn't have genuine belief, not to mention repentance and trust, then it is mainstream theology that says he isn't saved. Nothing nutty about it.

Edit: As far as the mental block, you said he met all the OTHER criteria, which for Christianity, means genuine trust in Christ.
If Catholics believe that members of other religions can be saved than surely they must believe that this fellow can be (even though he isn't a member of any other reliligion or an atheist BECAUSE HE THINKS ALL THOSE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE MUCH LESS LIKELY THAN CHRISTIANITY).
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11-20-2012 , 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bunny
I just said I was happy to be seen as dull, not that I wouldn't want to. I also said kids are smart, not dumb.
I asked you what questions you'd ask?

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
And there are plenty of atheists on this forum who fit this bill. Most in fact. Anyone who relies on the argument "no god would allow ....." But we are not talking about that. We are talking about rejecting a specific religion, even if you like its precepts, for a purely logical/ scientific reason. Or perhaps accepting that religion it spite of doubt because the alternatives are even in more doubt. I'm sure you yourself reject Mormonism at least partially for this type of reason. And there are scienrtifically minded people who reject the general idea of a personal god in an analogous way. Those atheists are in a much different category than the ten year old you.
Even in the short time I've been here I can see that's not true.

As for the 'no god would allow' argument, my version of that is not that it proves that there is no god but that god is so terrible that a moral person wouldn't worship it.

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
You have some kind of mental block as far as understanding the point I am trying to make. Even bunny understands it.
Ouch.
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11-20-2012 , 06:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
Me, yes. People in general, no. When people say that God is just they mean by their definition, not his. They may not have all the information, but they have to believe that if they did, they would agree about the justness. To say otherwise is nonsensical. Are you disputing that?
No, I'm disputing anyone's ability to describe a "no doubt" criteria as just without knowing the full picture. Sounds silly to me (obviously) but my opinion matters as little as yours.
Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Quote
11-20-2012 , 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
I asked you what questions you'd ask?
Things like how long does it take to climb down a chimney.
Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Quote
11-20-2012 , 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bunny
Things like how long does it take to climb down a chimney.
So you'd focus on specifics and try to demonstrate how unlikely they are to be true. The things is Santa is magic, he can get down a chimney really fast and without getting dirty or stuck.

Next question?
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11-20-2012 , 07:50 AM
Are your kids dumb?
Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Quote
11-20-2012 , 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bunny
Are your kids dumb?
What do you mean by 'dumb'?

Also, how is that relevant to the questions you'd ask a child if you were trying to stop them believing in Santa, you seem to have gone off at a tangent. You asked one question, I defeated it in exactly the same way a religious person might, now I'd like to hear the next question, do you have one?

Perhaps my method might actually be more effective?
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11-20-2012 , 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
What do you mean by 'dumb'?
Stupid. Incapable of basic reasoning. Gullible. Lacking in critical thinking skills. Fans of DS.
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Also, how is that relevant to the questions you'd ask a child if you were trying to stop them believing in Santa, you seem to have gone off at a tangent.
I was pointing out that you were neglecting my premise, (which you failed to understand initially, presumably you got it the second time around). I think kids are smart and I don't care if I talk over their heads - they'll get it or they'll think I'm boring.
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You asked one question, I defeated it in exactly the same way a religious person might,
You can't defeat a question. You gave an answer which a smart kid will laugh at. A dumb kid will understand why it's laughable in a few years.
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now I'd like to hear the next question, do you have one?
How many people are there in the world?
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Perhaps my method might actually be more effective?
How's it working out for you? One convert didn't you say?

I've affected plenty of people's thinking about religion, maths and armchair philosophy over the years. I don't have a goal of persuading anyone, but talking logically works just fine.
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11-20-2012 , 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bunny
Stupid. Incapable of basic reasoning. Gullible. Lacking in critical thinking skills. Fans of DS.
By your definition, most kids will meet at least one of those conditions and are dumb even into their teens. some never outgrow it and become dumb adults. The majority of the world's human population is dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
I was pointing out that you were neglecting my premise, (which you failed to understand initially, presumably you got it the second time around). I think kids are smart and I don't care if I talk over their heads - they'll get it or they'll think I'm boring.
Do you have children? You're basing your entire perspective on your belief that 'kids are smart'? Not smart enough to not believe in Santa apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
You can't defeat a question. You gave an answer which a smart kid will laugh at. A dumb kid will understand why it's laughable in a few years.
I can and I did. The fact that you consider, on behalf of a hypothetical 'smart kid' (basing that on what?) that it's laughable doesn't change anything. Unless you can prove that Santa isn't magic and can't move up and down chimneys at high speed, even in houses that don't have them, you'll have to move on to the next question, where I'm sure the same thing will happen again.

Eventually you might consider trying to undermine the belief in Santa by pointing out the children that they only believe it because they were trained to.

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Originally Posted by bunny

How many people are there in the world?
7 Billionish. Again you've failed to prove to our pretend children that Santa doesn't exist. If you're coming to the point of how he can deliver all those presents in one night (even removing all the people who don't celebrate Christmas), well, he's magic isn't he.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
How's it working out for you? One convert didn't you say?
One that I know of. Is there a point there? There may be other reasons than a failure of my logic for why I haven't 'converted' more, you may be leaping to all kinds of conclusions with very little information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
I've affected plenty of people's thinking about religion, maths and armchair philosophy over the years. I don't have a goal of persuading anyone, but talking logically works just fine.
So have I. I do. Yes it does.
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11-20-2012 , 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
By your definition, most kids will meet at least one of those conditions and are dumb even into their teens. some never outgrow it and become dumb adults. The majority of the world's human population is dumb.
Sadly, this is true. There's always hope though.
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Do you have children? You're basing your entire perspective on your belief that 'kids are smart'? Not smart enough to not believe in Santa apparently.
Ive taught hundreds. Hardly any kids believe in Santa.
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I can and I did.
You really can't. What entails "defeat" of a question?
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The fact that you consider, on behalf of a hypothetical 'smart kid' (basing that on what?) that it's laughable doesn't change anything.
Real kids will laugh at your answer. They won't accept it (for long, anyhow).
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Unless you can prove that Santa isn't magic and can't move up and down chimneys at high speed, even in houses that don't have them, you'll have to move on to the next question, where I'm sure the same thing will happen again.
I share your view that the same thing will happen. My next question might be "how does he know if you've been good?"
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Eventually you might consider trying to undermine the belief in Santa by pointing out the children that they only believe it because they were trained to.
Yeah I might consider it. Doesn't help them think though, so I probably won't bother - they can work that out for themselves. It's a pretty simple idea.
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7 Billionish. Again you've failed to prove to our pretend children that Santa doesn't exist.
I'm not trying to. I'm asking them questions so they can work it out for themselves.
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If you're coming to the point of how he can deliver all those presents in one night (even removing all the people who don't celebrate Christmas), well, he's magic isn't he.
I'm not coming to any point. I'm letting the smart kids do that while the dumb kids smile at me politely.
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One that I know of. Is there a point there? There may be other reasons than a failure of my logic for why I haven't 'converted' more, you may be leaping to all kinds of conclusions with very little information.
Nah. I'm just listening to what you post - as a general rule i think it will work well when you think you realise what point I'm making or conclusion I'm jumping to you should assume its something else.
Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Quote
11-20-2012 , 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
Sadly, this is true. There's always hope though.

Ive taught hundreds. Hardly any kids believe in Santa.

You really can't. What entails "defeat" of a question?

Real kids will laugh at your answer. They won't accept it (for long, anyhow).
Simply too many factors involved for this to go anywhere useful.

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Originally Posted by bunny
I'm not trying to. I'm asking them questions so they can work it out for themselves.
And what's wrong with asking them questions that will cause them to examine the origin of their beliefs? Just cut through all the 'magic' explanations by not asking questions that can be answered by them. Get to the nub of it, why they believe in the first place.
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11-20-2012 , 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
Simply too many factors involved for this to go anywhere useful.
Maybe you could just explain what "defeating a question" means.

Like your earlier use of luck - I have no idea what you mean.
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And what's wrong with asking them questions that will cause them to examine the origin of their beliefs?
You can do that if you like. I don't think it provides much insight (since its obvious),
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Just cut through all the 'magic' explanations by not asking questions that can be answered by them.
Magic explanations don't explain anything -when someone answers with "magic" they haven't actually answered anything. That's something worth teaching.
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11-20-2012 , 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bunny
Maybe you could just explain what "defeating a question" means.

Like your earlier use of luck - I have no idea what you mean.
That's an irrelevance, just ignore it.

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Originally Posted by bunny
You can do that if you like. I don't think it provides much insight (since its obvious),
No, I don't believe it's as obvious to most people as you do. Like some of the people on this forum, most religious people get quite upset if you suggest that they only believe what they do because they were taught to and that it might not be true at all, just indoctrination.

They'd prefer to think that they believe because it's 'true'. The alternative is unpalatable and I think that's why it's such an effective tool for perpetuating religious belief.

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Originally Posted by bunny
Magic explanations don't explain anything -when someone answers with "magic" they haven't actually answered anything. That's something worth teaching.
Tell that to those who answer questions with various versions of 'god moves in mysterious ways' when they can't explain something. It's the exact same thing.

Ultimately, there isn't a question that you can put to a religious person that can't be answered that way and you can't disprove it. So don't bother, just try to get them thinking about how they got there in the first place. It might have no effect, it might cause them enough doubt that they back off a little.
Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Quote
11-20-2012 , 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
That's an irrelevance, just ignore it.
*shrug* irrelevant to who?
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Tell that to those who answer questions with various versions of 'god moves in mysterious ways' when they can't explain something. It's the exact same thing.
Sure - it's a non answer. I use it myself in various places, who doesn't. It's only an error if you think mystery is the endpoint.
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Ultimately, there isn't a question that you can put to a religious person that can't be answered that way and you can't disprove it. So don't bother, just try to get them thinking about how they got there in the first place. It might have no effect, it might cause them enough doubt that they back off a little.
You don't ask questions to disprove something but to help someone see the weaknesses of their position.
Question for theists who believe their religion was determined largely due to the culture they Quote
11-20-2012 , 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
If Catholics believe that members of other religions can be saved than surely they must believe that this fellow can be (even though he isn't a member of any other reliligion or an atheist BECAUSE HE THINKS ALL THOSE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE MUCH LESS LIKELY THAN CHRISTIANITY).
No one has commented on this point. Does anyone disagreee?
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11-20-2012 , 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
No one has commented on this point. Does anyone disagreee?
I do not disagree.
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11-20-2012 , 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
No one has commented on this point. Does anyone disagreee?
I'm not going to go through another debate on who is actually saved, but Catholics may well believe that. As usual, your language is very imprecise. Do you mean he can be saved even though he remains an atheist? Or that he can be saved even though he understands the gospel and rejects it? I believe anyone "can" be saved - if they repent and accept Christ.
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11-20-2012 , 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
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If Catholics believe that members of other religions can be saved than surely they must believe that this fellow can be (even though he isn't a member of any other reliligion or an atheist BECAUSE HE THINKS ALL THOSE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE MUCH LESS LIKELY THAN CHRISTIANITY).
No one has commented on this point. Does anyone disagreee?
Seems reasonable to me.
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