I don't think anyone will dispute that Islam in its current state does not reflect a high degree of scientific pursuit or intellectual curiosity. However, the Nobel Prize and scientific paper connection is pretty spurious, when you consider that Nobel Prizes have not been given out that long, science in its current state is not particularly old, and there are far more salient reasons why we would not expect a lot of scientific literature to have come out of the Middle East or the Third World.

Well, come out to New York some time and I'll introduce you to a few more. It isn't really that rare. Also, how do you know this about the hundreds of Jews you've met? Do you think that observant Orthodox Jews all wears signs informing others of this fact? More to the point, if what you are saying is that many Jews (or Christians) do not follow the lifestyle requirements of their religions, well, I agree, but this is also true of Muslims.

I suspect that Rizeagainst is incorrect about the connection between Islam and science, but I don't know enough about the relevant history to support this suspicion. What I do know is that Rize's argument is absolute crap--mainly a series of leading questions, silly mischaracterizations, and a seeming inability to distinguish correlation and causation. Of course, this doesn't mean that Rize's conclusion is false. But it does mean that I haven't been provided with any reason to accept it.

What a riot! Thank you OP, for a good laugh. My giant contribution to this thread will be the following advices to OP:

Dear OP,
Read "books".
Learn "history".
Study "logic".

You are welcome.

1. It may not be all that rare, but I would say it's definately a minority, especially here in the US.

2. True, the arguments for correlation are weak (or lacking), but it doesn't mean the overall argument is wrong.

Which, in the ultimate irony, is exactly what your people don't tend to do anymore.

Who is "my" people? Everybody is my people. I am a human being.

ah, rizeagainst: the most abrasive, unpersuasive, and unsophisticated proponent of secularism -- which I deeply treasure -- that I've come across on these forums

do the rest of us secularists a favor and shut your yap until you've learned to think on a level that surpasses a high school debate team on matters as complex as the political, economic, and social histories of the world's 'developed' and 'developing' nations

to the ignore list!

I think my point was made. I'm not claiming that there are a lot of observant Jews in the world. Rather, my point is that the Jewish religion is at least as "distracting" as Islam and since Jews are overrepresented among scientific innovators Rize's claim of a causal connection here is weak.
I didn't notice any other argument, so I'll disagree. Unless, that is, you are counting Rize's claim that Muslim men are too busy raping women to do science.

rizeagainst is quickly turning into the atheist version of pletho

There is a massive disconnect going on in this thread.

I don't think Nobel Prizes should have been the example used. I would use scientific output as a better example, but its' along the same lines, just not exactly. No Korean has ever won the Nobel Prize, and I doubt many people would say Korean society neglects science and technology.

The real issue here is that fundamentalist Islam, in itself, is vastly different than the examples you people are coming up with. This entire disregard to the OP "You's a bigot! Ignore!" is just stupid.

Fundamentalist Islam in itself has principals that are abhorrent and regressive to western ways of thinking. Leaving the Islamic faith means the death penalty. Free speech is forbidden. You may NOT criticize Islam, on penalty of death. Killing others in the name of religion is ok.

Disagreeing with someone is NOT a hate crime. Inciting someone to break the law because of your opinion is.

Fundamentalist Islam being scrutinized and criticized is a good thing. The creators of South Park had death threats against them for their perceived criticism of Islam (I think of drawing some sort of picture of Muhammed). Were all the people who joined in the "Draw Mohammed" campaign bigots? Did they "not respect" Islam? Should Islam be given a pass because it is a "religion" and should be respected, even if they do things that break our laws?

Fundamentalist Islam goes against all of the principals of western society. Wake up. Stop attacking the OP for criticizing something that should be criticized.

And chew on this for a second : What group of people have regressed more than members of Islam more in the last 1,000 years? Their backwards progression is mind-boggling.

So much fail. You implicitly conflate "fundamentalist Islam" with "Islam" in its other varieties like it makes no difference to you. You utterly neglect to even mention much more dominant factors and conditioning influences when it comes to scientific output, like the economic, social, and political health and history of this or that region, and the diverse causes that compose it. Singling out "Islam" -- which, by the way, you're not even nuanced enough to realize is a variable incarnation -- as some kind of prime determinant of "scientific output" is a joke, and ALL OF SOCIAL SCIENCE LAUGHS AT YOU.

@wil318466: Do you think this is a problem just with fundamentalist Islam, or the fundamentalists of all religions? To be honest, I don't know why you are singling out one religion here since in reality, extremists of any group (not even just religious ones) hold back society and science (except maybe extremist scientists, if they exist...).

I wont' even respond to lagdonk, his posts speak for themselves.

Gansta - do you think islamic countries, in general, are less detrimental to scientific progress than, lets say, christian countries? Why?

I have a problem with fundamentalist anything. Fundamentalist Islam especially, though. Why? Because one group sits around and rolls their eyes in the back of their heads, speaking in tongues. Another flies planes into buildings. See the difference?

fundamentalist christians are responsible for more deaths worldwide than fundamentalist muslims. see the difference?

I won't refute the numbers, as I'm unsure of them and don't feel like researching them. I will say that the vast majority of Christians live in free and progressive environments, which are much more open to critical lines of thought than Muslims, or as you put it, Islams.

That statment ok?

woops. its late. but yeah i would agree thats a fair statement, as irrelevant as it is.

It's not irrelevant at all, in fact it's probably the most relevant statement in this thread, and if you can't see why, well, something is wrong.

It's too late for me to research right now, but you have to be careful that you're not comparing fundamentalist Islamic nations to moderate Christians nations. At least from what I see in the news, fundamentalist Christians in the US are indeed holding back science, but they're not quite in charge nor a majority of the population, so it's a difficult comparison to make.

How does a a small minority group of wacko Christians slow down scientific progress in America, other than robbing us of more potential scientists from their ranks? Fundamentalist Christians have a negligible effect on Science in America except maybe in stem cell research. Our scientists typically are striving to do what they know - in the name of science.

How many Fundamentalist Christian countries are there in the world? How many Islamic?

I dunno.. I think I'm making progress in my argument here.

lol. more atheists live in free and progressive environments than christians. so yeah something (with the argument you are attempting to make) is wrong. if you cant see why, then 2 things are wrong.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

My point was there are environments where critical thinking/free speech/science/technology are valued and flourish. These countries are typically not Islamic.

They slow down scientific progress by impeding quality education. Nowhere else in the western world is the teaching of evolution controversial. Nowhere else is it regarded as sensible to consider including creationism in science classes.

I have no idea on the accuracy of this - it was just an overheard interview on the wireless, don't even know who it was. Nonetheless, FWIW the topic was science in America being in crisis due to the poor groundings americans now get (on average). The statistic quoted was that the 50% mark had just been breached in terms of proportion of PhD students in American universities. The claim was that, even though America has the best universities in the world, Americans aren't well equipped to perform to a high level there (and that they are falling ever further behind the rest of us).

I'm not sure you're arguing for the same thing as rizeagainst at all. I think religion is likely to impede scientific progress. I think counting nobel prizes is a silly way to demonstrate that (because of all the other factors which swamp the 'which country is more religious' effect). I think suggesting that the bad thing about Islam is that it teaches people to rape women instead of doing science is counter-productive if you actually intend to get people to agree with you.

That's usually a sign you're on the right track.

Evolution is controversial to the weirdos who argue it. In terms of court opinion it is no where remotely close to being controversial. In fact, it is 100% the opposite. Creationism has been annihilated in the courtroom because in the courts, where you actually have to come up with things like facts and proof, creationism has zero merit. None whatsoever. Science is under attack by religious nuts everywhere. Thank God science is holding up strong (nice pun, eh?)

I've said before Nobel prizes probably isn't the best way to make this argument. What he's trying to say is that Islam is ******ing scientific progress, and I'd have to agree. When he talks about raping women he's coming up with a very good example of the things that can be rationalized in an Islamic country that are so far, so backwards, so galactically behind what western countries have moved towards, it's no wonder why they are not doing anything in science.

In societies where they stone people, where you can be murdered for apostacy, in a country where you can be convicted with no courts, no free speech, no rights of women, how could you ever expect the things that science needs to flourish - logic, reason, scientific method - to ever come about?

Their religion permeates so deeply into their culture there is no wonder why the two are so disconnected.

In before you're called a bigot/racist and people feel the need to tell you that they're ignoring you in a desperate attempt to make you feel bad for harshly judging another culture