Just bought the Qur'an - Page 3 - Religion, God, and Theology

I mean don't these books basically state somewhere that you have to believe in their God or you go to hell. I know the bible says this. If you don't believe Jesus is the son of God you're gonna go to hell, which necessarily excludes all other religions. And the OT says this ad nauseum.

Havnt read the OT for ages - does it say anything like that in there? I know contemporary Judaism does not require a person to be jewish to go to heaven and evangelising and conversion is almost non existant (if i remember correctly, the idea of heaven is a vague and undefined aspect of jewish theology - could be wrong though).

Quote

03-04-2009 , 04:22 PM

#52

Claudius Galenus

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by C-Dog

Thanks for that stellar piece of news.

No doubt the next time some people bomb a group of Jews in a Disco they will be shouting Hallelujah Jesus. Cause it's the same right? Both groups are equally as likely to engage in acts of terror and murder at this time in history.

Christianity sucks too, but it isn't killing people at near the rate Islam is.

My point isnt that Christianity=Islam, it is that just because some leaders of the religion are using self-serving interpretations to further their political agendas doesn't mean that the violence that results is inherent to the religion. Just like the Crusades being ordered by Papal decree doesn't mean that slaughtering Muslims is a tenet of the Christian faith. The problem with Islam is the way a few are misrepresenting it to bend the populace to their goals, not the religion itself.

Quote

03-04-2009 , 04:41 PM

#53

madnak

Cooler than Sammy Hagar

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 19,742

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claudius Galenus

The religions themselves embody political agendas. There are no peaceful countries dominated by Christianity or Islam. And I don't know that there can be. Christianity, for one, is a religion of hate. I don't know much about Islam, but if you're comparing it to Christianity you aren't doing it any favors.

Quote

03-04-2009 , 04:46 PM

#54

Claudius Galenus

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by madnak

I agree with all of this, I just don't think Islam is inherently worse than Christianity.

Quote

03-04-2009 , 04:52 PM

#55

madnak

Cooler than Sammy Hagar

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 19,742

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claudius Galenus

I agree with all of this, I just don't think Islam is inherently worse than Christianity.

I didn't think C-Dog was claiming otherwise, but no, I don't think Islam is worse. Christianity is probably worse. But then, Christianity got much of the bloodthirst out of its system in the middle ages, I think it's a more mature religion and generally has come to more tolerant interpretations in much of the world.

Quote

03-04-2009 , 05:11 PM

#56

Claudius Galenus

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,558

Yeah very poorly worded on my part. He wasn't arguing that explicitly, but it seemed he was saying that because there are Imams and other influential Muslims that use the Qur'an to justify aggression against other religions that it is a concrete tenet of the Islamic faith.

Quote

03-05-2009 , 12:55 AM

#57

aarono2690

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,874

I'm not enjoying The Cow so far, there's no pretty story for me to follow.

Least there was a naked whore running wild and free in the Garden of Eden.

Quote

03-05-2009 , 12:58 AM

#58

dragonystic

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,207

Quote:

Originally Posted by aarono2690

It's the same God.

if its the same God, then why would that God inspire a holy text (The Bible) that rules out his other followers (Muslims) from going to heaven. the bible clearly states that only those who take christ as their personal savior will be saved.

Quote

03-05-2009 , 02:03 AM

#59

aarono2690

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonystic

Where does it say this? Not saying it doesn't, but where does it say you must believe in Jesus to enter paradise?

Quote

03-05-2009 , 04:08 AM

#60

theHuntContinues

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,112

Quote:

Christianity sucks too, but it isn't killing people at near the rate Islam is.

thats like saying " TB sucks too, but it isnt killing people at near the rate HIV/AIDS is."

Quote

03-05-2009 , 04:12 AM

#61

Claudius Galenus

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonystic

They believe in the divinity of all 3 Abrahamic texts, and that Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammed were all profits of the Abrahamic God. They don't believe that the OT or NT is inerrant though. They believe the Qur'an is the word of God as told to Mohammed (who was illiterate but had a flawless memory), whereas the other two were written by many different men and thus are not as pure a message. So I think Islam's answer to you would be that you should take that up with the Christians.

Quote

03-05-2009 , 04:42 AM

#62

Our House

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 28,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claudius Galenus

They believe in the divinity of all 3 Abrahamic texts, and that Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammed were all profits of the Abrahamic God.

Freudian slip?

Quote

03-05-2009 , 05:17 AM

#63

meow_meow

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 3,166

One of the many things I find hard to swallow about "modern" islam and islamic states is the laws regarding apostasy.

OP, maybe your strong interest in Islam might be curbed by giving faithfreedom.org a good, long browse.

Quote

03-05-2009 , 05:32 AM

#64

ILOVEPOKER929

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 30,309

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goater

I screwed up. The OT says nothing about going to hell. I meant that the OT God clearly states ad nauseam that if you don't believe in him your ****ed.

Exodus 20:5

Deuteronomy 13:1-16

Quote

03-05-2009 , 11:13 AM

#65

Goater

adept

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,137

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929

I screwed up. The OT says nothing about going to hell. I meant that the OT God clearly states ad nauseam that if you don't believe in him your ****ed.

Exodus 20:5

Deuteronomy 13:1-16

Thanks. Yes, i forgot the anti polytheism and paganism that is rampant in the OT. Been a while...

Quote

03-05-2009 , 01:10 PM

#66

dragonystic

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,207

Quote:

Originally Posted by aarono2690

Where does it say this? Not saying it doesn't, but where does it say you must believe in Jesus to enter paradise?

John 3:16-18

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

so ya, Muslims are out.

Quote

03-05-2009 , 02:38 PM

#67

aarono2690

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonystic

I will look into this more. Iraj Bashiri, a prominent professor from Iran (he even has a wiki page), is one of my professors. I will ask him to elaborate on this.

Quote

03-05-2009 , 02:54 PM

#68

dragonystic

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,207

Quote

03-05-2009 , 04:45 PM

#69

ILOVEPOKER929

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 30,309

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonystic

I think it's sad how arguably the most popular quote in the bible is really nothing more than a threat.

Quote

03-05-2009 , 04:49 PM

#70

devilset666

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 661

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929

I think it's sad how arguably the most popular quote in the bible is really nothing more than a threat.

sticks and stones will break my bones.............

Quote

03-06-2009 , 12:54 AM

#71

meow_meow

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 3,166

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929

I think it's sad how arguably the most popular quote in the bible is really nothing more than a threat.

I was under the impression that John was considered, among biblical scholars, to be written significantly later than the other 3, and mostly bs.
I could be wrong.

Quote

03-10-2009 , 09:49 PM

#72

dragonystic

banned

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,207

Quote:

Originally Posted by aarono2690

I will look into this more. Iraj Bashiri, a prominent professor from Iran (he even has a wiki page), is one of my professors. I will ask him to elaborate on this.

so what happened with this? i was looking forward to a response here

Quote

03-10-2009 , 11:15 PM

#73

BigErf

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,322

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claudius Galenus

The problem with Islam is the way a few are misrepresenting it to bend the populace to their goals, not the religion itself.

How do Muslims view the atrocious acts committed in the name of Allah? Use 9/11 for example. Were the American people prayed for by the true Muslims in the Middle East during that time or was it a time for celebration?

If a couple crazy Christian-excuse using terrorists went and flew some planes into a couple buildings in the name of Jesus I'm pretty sure the Pope (at least) would be on Cspan saying, "Nope, uh uh, those guys weren't with us."

As sarcastic as this may sound I really am curious to the answer.