Anecdotal, but the tenants that rent my house are Muslims. The mother and father both told me that if I were Jewish, they wouldn't be allowed to rent from me; as their religion prevents them from conducting business with Jews.

Of course, they may not be "true" Muslims, so take this FWIW.

so to them its better to be atheist than jewish? or did you tell them something else...

I told them I'm not religious. They know my family's Catholic. They said they were OK with that.

EDIT: Judging from how they spoke though, a roach or termite would be better than a Jew.

Do you mean how do they bow down? Google the following "Minnesota College Prayer Room", "Minnesota Muslim taxi driver", or "Minnesota Muslim Target Worker". There are more, but those come to mind.

Are you trying to argue here whether or not Mohammed hated the Jews?

http://sheikyermami.com/2008/10/05/w...hadith-matter/

Is anyone else thinking of Borat right now?

haha, that was my favorite scene in that movie...throwing money at the jew ants was hilarious...

My interest in debating anything relating to religion or etnicities with you is minimal.

And no - like the last 10 times I probably wasn't trying to argue what you either thought I was arguing or more probable; what you wanted it to mean so you can argue against it.

My understanding is that the Quran doesn't take nicely to: People who converted away from islam and polytheists.

Problem with a translation is that any devout muslim are going to claim you haven't actually read the Quran since only the arabic text is actually viewed as divine.

Correct on both points. Plus the verses that seem to be against "Christians" or "Jews" are most often directed against particular people living in the seventh century, not "the" Christians or Jews in toto: Many of the verses are simply responses to particular events that happened during Muhammad's life. In order to understand the verses you need to know the events that led to their revelation. This may be done by reading a "tafsir" (commentary) detailing the context of the verses. There are many good commentaries, but you will not go wrong with Al-Tabari's commentary which was written at a very early date and is still regarded as one of the best.
Cheers

Too bad so much of the stuff against Christians/Jews/Apostates is still in active use throughout the Muslim World.

Too bad the world is full of ignoramuses like you. There is nothing against the "Christians" or "Jews" in the Qur'an (and please do not quote a few verses selected from here and there without the necessary contextual information ok? I know the Qur'an well).

Quite different from Christianity or Judaism which do not know what to make of Islam other than declaring it a false religion, the Islamic tradition accepts the other major religions as divine in origin (though it does not accept their every theological position). Much of what is going on in the Islamic world against the Jews, foreigners etc. is political in nature and not religious (though I will be the first to acknowledge that religion is often used for political purposes by shrewd and opportunistic politicians to manipulate and rule ignorant masses).

Finally, there is nothing called an "Islamic World": The practice and the interpretation of Islam enormously differ in places like Indonesia or Bosnia or India or Saudi Arabia or Turkey etc. There is no central religious authority in Islam (unlike say, Catholicism) to decide what is the proper interpretation of the sacred texts, so that creates an enormous variability and difference when it comes to the understanding of the religion within the Islamic countries. Also, do not think for a minute that the realities of the Islamic countries and the Islamic religion correspond to the dumbed-down images and rhetoric about Islam you constantly hear in the Western media. In short, educate yourself.
Cheers

You win. Plz start an "ask me anything about the Qur'an" thread. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has studied it.
Cheers.

I think you misunderstood C-Dog. He was referring to the actions of many Islamic people, not what the Qur'an says. I don't think his statement is controversial. And I do think the Qur'an (just like the bible) at least implies something against other religions. I mean don't these books basically state somewhere that you have to believe in their God or you go to hell. I know the bible says this. If you don't believe Jesus is the son of God you're gonna go to hell, which necessarily excludes all other religions. And the OT says this ad nauseum. Isn't it stated somewhere in the Qur'an that if you believe Jesus is the son of God you're gonna go to hell?

Edit: I just reread what C-Dog said, and I think he was referring to what was said in the book so never mind. I think it's a lock that there's stuff in the Qur'an that people are interpreting to be against other religions which explains their actions.

You must know the Quran better than a ton of Imams in the Middle East I guess. Who knew we had a bonafide expert on the Quran in here. I can find you tons of stuff with Imams speaking against Jews and Christians. And using the Quran to justify their statements, and in many cases quoting straight from it.

What about all of the statements in regard to the Jizyah tax and Dhimmitude. Would you not consider them to be against Christians/Jews? How about the Sword Verse?

Quran 9:29
“Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

Is the above out of context, and not valid today? I think it's great that they accept Judaism/Christianity as divine, of course they must pay a special tax, and accept a status as a second class citizen to be allowed to live. Here are some links to Robert Spencer's interpretations of that verse (backed up with references to Islamic literature and commentaries) http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019005.php http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019086.php

A final question about the Quran, how can a book written by Allah himself only apply in the situations that it was written? I thought the the Quran was the exact replica of a book located in Heaven? If that is the case, than are not the things in it good for all time?

How about the canonical Hadiths? Do they have stuff against Jews/Christians in them as well?

Hadith Muslim:
Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

That is not some made up **** there, that is a canonical Hadith. A core part of the Muslim Faith.


Edited to add that I have read the Koran, as well as commentary on it. I have also read "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq, "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and "The politically incorrect guide to Islam" by Robert Spencer. So it's not like I just spout **** I read on the web. I base my opinions on the actions of Islam's followers and the things that I read in their holy book and commentaries.

Look, I am not trying to convince you that Islam is a religion of violence, but to state that it does not direct aggressions towards non-Muslims is a ridiculous statement. Since it so obviously does.

Look wise-ass, I teach the history of the Middle East in a major research University in the U.S. (my distant background is in hard sciences, but that is another issue); so yes, you have a bona-fide expert here. If your sources for learning about Islam are Ibn Warraq, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and "jihadwatch" then all I can say is your knowledge will be extremely biased and essentially worthless.

I have no intention of teaching anything about Islam in a poker forum, but you need to know that there are no established "canons" of Hadith accepted by all Muslims. Just to give an example, Shi'ite Muslims (approximately 15 percent of more than a billion Muslims worldwide) do not accept any hadith narrated by Abu Huraira (whose quotation you used) or Aisha for that matter. Moreover, there are various categories of Hadiths (such as the strong, weak, disputed ones and outright forgeries) and usually it is not a good idea to use them to learn the teachings of Islam unless you really know what you're doing (in your case, I am fairly confident at this stage that you do not).

Now, use your head and think: After the introduction of Islam into the former territories of the Roman Empire and the Sassanid Persia (all of which was essentially either Christian and Zoroastrian), there were huge numbers of Christians and Jews living within the Islamic Empire. Some of these guys converted to Islam but some did not. Believe it or not they continued to live in relative peace and harmony with the Muslims (although Muslims were the rulers). There was nothing like the pogroms against the Jews (which was a constant feature of Christian Eastern Europe) or the Christians in the Middle East. There are still sizable Christian Arab populations (yes, not all Arabs are Muslims) in places like Lebanon and Egypt now. So if your ludicrous sources are correct and Islam is against the Christians and Jews, then why did the Muslims simply kill off those "infidels" (now another piece of knowledge for you: the term "kaffir" which the Qur'an uses simply means "those who cover the truth" in Arabic, but it is so commonly and wrongly translated as "infidel" that even well-meaning but ignorant Muslims now think that their religion sees the Christians and Jews as "infidels", which is ludicrous) when they were ruling them and had every opportunity to do that? Well, the fact of the matter is that the human condition (including the religion of Islam) is much more nuanced than the moronic propaganda about Islam you are now parroting. That is why.
Finally, I am not religious at all. So, so stop worrying about "convincing me" about Islam and whatnot.
Cheers

It's good to hear someone who knows their stuff talking about it, a rare phenomena when it comes to this debate.

I don't have much to say on your posts except that I enjoyed reading them and I liked the calm intellectual poise in them - a rarity in discussions on Islam.

I for one (and im sure many others) would be very interested in reading your thoughts and answers to questions on this subject. If you do not have the time or inclination, fair enough, but I know this is a thread I would be very interested in continuing.

My personal opinion is that all religions include the opportunity for different interpretation (including violent ones) and that in the case of Islam, the dominant ones at present (for a wide variety of reasons) are just that. For every expert saying that one version is a perversion or a "ludicrous" interpretation, there is another that says the opposite. That is the nature of religion in general and im quite surprised to hear that you seem to be saying that all the experts and people following a violent version are in effect wrong - who gets to say what is correct or not with regard to a religion that relies on interpretation of ancient texts?

Finally (and please dont take this as an insult) but you seem very defensive and a little bit arrogant after only a few posts in this thread. No, we are not all experts on Islam and dont claim to be, however it is obvious that it would be easy to point to a great number of experts that hold different interpretations than yours. Personally, i would be interested in hearing (in general) why these different interpretations are not legitimate and how one goes about making this assessment.

Again, this is a subject that I think a lot of people who read these forums would be interested in and I hope you continue to post in this thread.

I think using former or non Muslims to learn about Islam is the best choice. At least they don't think the Quran is the perfect word of God. Ibn Warraq, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali were born and raised Muslim in Muslim lands, that seems like a pretty good way to learn what is really going on in those areas. Pretty hard to find anything wrong with a book when you actually believe it is written in the hand of God right?

There are a lot of Issues with the Quran and with Muhammed, but then again you already know that.

I don't dispute your info on Christians/Jews in Muslim lands. But they were second class citizens and in most cases subject to the Jizya tax. The vast majority of those that converted no doubt did so because there isn't anything to lose when you convert in that situation, it is all gain.

I think that if you did an "Ask my anything about the Quran or Middle East history" thread it would be a pretty cool thread. Asking questions about the middle east from a non-zealot is always the best choice.

lol, no its not. if it were, the penalty for apostasy wouldn't be death.

in any case, Christianity and the Bible make many claims of ownership over Truth. John 3:16-20 or so is all you need to see this. those who believe in Christ are saved. those who aren't...aren't.

The Quran is a farfetched book. So is the bible. It goes without saying that amongst their most avid believers there are going to be some very scary people.

Tell me how God is different between a Muslim and a Christian. I don't give a **** about Prophets or Sons, I'm talking about the main man.

one's a father and one isn't (i dont care if you give a **** about sons. its a relevant difference, especially when its claimed that salvation can only be found through the Son.)

The same argument can be made with equal or greater validity about Christianity

Thanks for that stellar piece of news.

No doubt the next time some people bomb a group of Jews in a Disco they will be shouting Hallelujah Jesus. Cause it's the same right? Both groups are equally as likely to engage in acts of terror and murder at this time in history.

Christianity sucks too, but it isn't killing people at near the rate Islam is.

It's the same God.