I would agree with your 2nd paragraph. Many of the instances of hospitality in the Middle East are not only due to Islam, but also human quality, as well as not being in a war zone. But at the same time, if one studies the subject of how Muslims reacted to the Jewish holocaust. You will (pleasant surprise) come across examples in North Africa along with Europe, where Muslims risked life to protect Jews in WW2.

Neel , take no offense but I addressed your question, you can keep asking the same question or you can move on to a different subject, either way is ok with me. Take no offense to this if possible

Your a broken record on this one.

Are you going to respond to the links provided by mr. bum and C Dog?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4065927.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...s-a-crime.html

Are you casually (probably subconsciously) discussing Arab "hospitality" in the same breath as pointing out that in general, Arabs did not behave like European savages with regard to their Jewish neighbours during the Second World War?

These Jews had lived in these places for generations - they were not "guests" to be treated "hospitably".

The fact that the Arab World did not massacre its Jewish population on mass does not say much about the treatment of Jews in Arab countries. It just says that they treated Jews better than Europeans at that time.

Yes it absolutely does, prior to the creation of modern day Israel, for 1000 years Arabs and Jews lived like brothers. And to your last point, I trust the testimonials of Jews and Muslims of WW2 over some narrative you suggest. Muslims had amazing bravery during WW2 in risking life to save Jews. One story for instance, and this can be viewed below. The Jews of the times of WW2 were at risk , so what happened was Muslims took them in as guests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRESHVcFidQ


In northern Albania, while under occupation, a Nazi truck loaded with Albanian prisoners was making its way through a local village. Apparently it was decided that one of the prisoners (a younger Jew) was going to get killed, Yet Alia Alia, a Muslim man, was able to get the Germans drunk, and was able to tip off the young Jew to run into the Forest and that Alia will locate him later, which he did.

When the Nazis found out the Jew was missing, they put a gun to Alia's head, threatening to burn down the village but heroically, Ali refused to give up the Jew. After this incident, the Jewish boy lived with Alia for 6-12 months.

Years later, there was a reunion between the Jew and the son of Ali.

where? link please

Rubbish. The way in which you casually dismiss the suffering and intolerance of large groups of people is amazing. The reality is that Jews in general were treated better relative to Jews in Europe and of course there were times when they received good treatment, but to assert the above is just a complete refusal to accept reality.

As you love wikipedia so much (Link): "Dhimmi were subjected to a number of restrictions, the application and severity of which varied with time and place. Restrictions included residency in segregated quarters, obligation to wear distinctive clothing, public subservience to Muslims, prohibitions against proselytizing and against marrying Muslim women, and limited access to the legal system (the testimony of a Jew did not count if contradicted by that of a Muslim). Dhimmis had to pay a special poll tax (the "jizya"), which exempted them from military service, and also from payment of the Zakat alms tax required of Muslims."

"there were numerous incidents of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews in North Africa,[8] especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos.[9] Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.[10] At certain times in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death.[11]"

The situation where Jews both enjoyed cultural and economic prosperity at times, but were widely persecuted at other times, was summarised by G.E. Von Grunebaum:

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.

"Some narrative"!? Only one of us is trying to push a narrative. My entire family are Arab Jews that lived in Egypt for generations and I am reasonably familiar with the relevant history of the region.

There were of course examples of incredible bravery and sacrifice by Muslims who protected Jews and these righteous people should be honoured and their actions never forgotten, but your whitewashing of history is disgusting.

A few more wiki highlights:

The 1066 Granada massacre

In Egypt, Syria and Yemen Jewish population was confined to segregated quarters, or mellahs, in Morocco beginning from the 15th century

In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco

In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam

"Under the Zaydi rule, the Yemenite Jews were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim's food. They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first. They could not build houses higher than a Muslim's or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations he had the option of fleeing or seeking intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby."

In 1834, in Safed local Muslim Arabs carried out a massacre of the indigenous (Old Yishuv) Jewish population of that city in the Safed Plunder

In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted.

In 1840, the Jews of Damascus were falsely accused of having murdered a Christian monk and his Muslim servant and of having used their blood to bake Passover bread.[45] A Jewish barber was tortured until he "confessed"; two other Jews who were arrested died under torture, while a third converted to Islam to save his life.

In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fez in Morocco.

In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island.

In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight.

In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.

Noting the recent wave of violence in Falujah, the Security concerns the Russians have over Islamic extremism in Sochi during the games, and the 10 year old female suicide bomber, more violence from 'not true muslims' with their own agenda, no doubt.

I'll preempt the response:

You're focussing on the negatives. You refuse to say anything positive about suicide bombers. Why don't you like ladyboys as much as me?

Legit LOL.

Note how easy it would have been for me to flip out in this post with anti Jew hate messages,

Wow, so I could go ahead right now and tell you the crimes the modern state of Israel has carried out. Or the crimes of Jews before the creation of the modern state of Israel. I don't want to go down that route because it does indeed, ignore the very rich history between Jews and Muslims. In both the Muslim and Jewish Golden age, Jews and Muslims worked together.

During the Spanish Inquisition of 1492, Jews were kicked out, but it was the Muslim Majority countries who not only welcomed these Jews, but also Jews advanced (succesfully) in these countries.

I used to take the Palestine side at face value, now I go at things with an independent view, don't buy the nonsense Goater, for years, Jews and Muslims were like brothers.

Let me go ahead and provide some counter examples of Muslims saving Jews during the Jewish holocaust

----Taieb el-Okbi was a member of Algerian Islah (Reform) Party, and a friend of the prominent Algerian reformist Abdelhamid Ben Badis, who was tolerant to different religions and cultures. Ben Badis founded and directed the Algerian League of Muslims and Jews. He died before Vichy forces occupied Algeria, but Taieb el-Okbi took his place. Taieb el-Okbi discovered that the leaders of the pro-fascist group the Légion Français des Combattants were planning a Jewish pogrom with the help of Muslim troops. He did everything he could to prevent it and ordered Muslims not to attack Jews. His actions were compared to French archbishops Jules-Géraud Saliège and Pierre-Marie Gerlier, both of whom saved some Jews in France.

--- "Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps."


Underneath the fortress of mosaics and tranquil gardens occupying an entire city block in the Latin Quarter, it is revealed the mosque’s underground caverns once served as a refuge for resistance fighters and French Jews, where they could be provided with certificates of Muslim identity. Meanwhile upstairs, Benghabrit, a wise Algerian-born religious and political leader, was giving tours of the mosque to Nazi officers and their wives, unaware of what was transpiring right under their feet.



Saide Arifova (c. 1916 – 9 August 2007) was a Crimean Tatar woman from Bakhchisaray, Crimea, Ukraine who saved more than 88 Crimean Jews in 1942–1943,for which she was honored as one of the Righteous Among the Nations. During the Nazi occupation of Crimea during World War II, she worked as a kindergarten director and managed to forge documents, sourcing Jewish children's ethnicity. She also managed to conceal children from Kerch orphanage, who were prepared to be sent to Germany for inhuman medical experimentation. Nazis considered her suspect and tortured her.

Without a doubt, this Muslim woman, Saide Afrove was a hero to humanity.



[/QUOTE]

Also this women, just an AMAZING MUSLIM who was captured and killed by Nazi forces for refusing to give up her accomplishes in the fight against Hitler and the Jewish holocaust

Noor Inayat Khan was a Indian Muslim woman who worked as an Allied SOE agent side during WW2, she was awarded the George Cross, a UK civilian honor. Which is the highest civilian honor in the UK, AFAIK

If you keep linking low level shots Goater( because I could do the same with violent Jewish action against innocent Muslims), then I will just respond with Muslims and Jews working together.

Yes Iraq is out of control. It's unfortunate the US did not assassinate the Mafia like leader of the Mahdi army, Muqtada al-Sadr back in 2006-2008 when it had the opportunity, but for some reason, did not carry out the mission.

Your thoughts on this post I made in politics, MB?

Of Course In Syria, Al Assad is claiming he is fighting terrorists. It is quite clear that often this is the case. What is interesting is that when it comes to a situation like Syria, it's very difficult to decide whom to support. There is no doubt that the 2007 Surge in Iraq played a role in the eventual instability in Syria. The AL Qaeda Sunni/Shia radical groups are made of many different ideologies, often of which have more to do with Mafia style tactics as opposed to anything associated with True Islam.

For instance the Mahdi(Shia) army in Iraq was attempting to take over Iraq up until 2008, its leader IMO is attempting to basically, for lack of a better term, become rich. Though many reports of the Mahdi militias existence continue to arise.

I think what the support itself from Western nations comes down to which group can benefit Western nations the most, as harsh as this sounds this is most likely the case.

Lol at the Mahdi animosity.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The subject of this thread is Islam. What does the US, Israel, or anything else have do do with it? You cant use "well, some Muslims also did great things" as an answer to what I posted. I never claimed that every single Muslim was anti semitic, or that some individuals, villages, cities and even countries did not provide a safe, respectful and relatively free place for the Jews to live, some for long periods of time.

You are simply ignoring any fact that goes against your preferred narrative. Can you even respond directly to the (hugely incomplete) list of events that I posted above? Do you deny they happened?

I also made it quite clear that these were the result of societal trends and attitudes and most were carried out either by or at least with sanction from the governing bodies responsible, usually involving some overtly religious theme.

I think that this is your most telling line:

You clearly dont want to "go down that road" but you have to.

The route i am suggesting does the exact opposite of ignoring the fact that the Muslim world was largely better than the European World re its treatment of Jews, that the Muslim world was often a decent place to live for Jews and that individual Muslims performed acts of great sacrifice for their neighbours.

My approch takes all these facts into consideration and also takes into consideration the more unfortunate, negative facts that I alluded to above. Gasp. Radical I know.

The fact that you are happy to publicly and bluntly state that you are simply unwilling to consider any negative events in your analysis of how good it was for the Jews who lived under Muslim rule says it all. No wonder everything is sweet and roses for you.

In short - I am a Jew of Middle Eastern decent. Dont tell me that everything was hunky dory and dont tell me "don't buy the nonsense Goater". These people were dragged out of the homes they had lived in for generations and butchered along with their families because they were Jews. How can you so flippantly ignore this!? You are a denier and a disgusting human being.

PS: Does this mean what I think it means?

Islam's essence and core principles are nonviolent. It is laughable when people consider the horror and damages inflicted in the name of Christianity that Islam is demonized by anyone.

While it is true, Muslim extremist feel slighted and marginalized by the dominance the Western world has established through hundreds of years of wars and murdering the innocent. Their anger arises more from the hypocrisy of the Western world and the Western world's greed and unrelenting desire to exploit the third world than any dogmatic fundamental Islamic doctrine.

I quickly voted for strongly agree in the poll, and was depressed to see the results, so many uniformed voters.

Oh and by the way, they were welcomed (they were actually invited to certain places) because of the trade and finance advantage they would bring to the Islamic world who were in direct conflict with the Christian world at the time.

The Turkish Sultan of the Ottoman Empire actually taunted Christian Spain that by expelling the Jews, they would impoverish Spain and enrich his empire.

As another interesting historical aside that some people may not be aware of, after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, the trade based Republic of Venice invited the Jews to come there due to the contacts and commerce that they had built up with the Islamic world. Jews were only allowed to live in a small enclave at the edge of the city and the gates were literally locked every night. The place was called Gheto Vechio. The first Ghetto.

The Ottoman Empire (Muslims) were easily the most tolerant and respectful of the Jewish people and their plight and offered the best conditions and most acceptance of the Jewish people at the time. While their motives may have been selfish (which considering Islam's historic general rejection of modernity and outside cultural influences, I strongly doubt their motives were purely selfish), they were ultimately more humane and accepting of Jews than Christians.

For years , Jews and Muslims lived like brothers, this is the truth and not a wrong. During this time both Jews and Muslims were attacked by Muslims, Jews attacked Muslims, Jews were also attacked by Jews. But yes you are correct in the sense that I shouldn't have theoretically implied the opposite of what opinions Goater was claiming. Both Palestinian and Israeli extremists will tell you each side treated each other like dirt thru history and then try and blame the other side, But can one take these people at face value? I can't. Sure, individuals did have arguments, fights, discrepancies, but this goes against the history of how the greater majority of Muslims and Jews treated each other thru history

Could one imagine, hearing the decree in Catholic Spain, in 1492 when the Spanish King decreed that all Jews must leave(forcibly). Try and let that sink in and then realize it was the Muslim Majority countries who stepped up and welcomed unknown (exiled)immigrants to their nations. Of these Jewish Immigrants who arrived in Muslim majority countries after the Spanish Inquisition of 1492, many would go on to lead prosperous lives contributing greatly to their new communities.

Peso2paydirt is ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmLWEqMJtko

At the same time, the folks who voted disagree are great people with good morals, intentions, etc.


During WW2, when the Nazis were attempting to destroy Judaism, it was Albanian Muslims who risked their life to harbor Jews during the war. In France, (and this is absolutely amazing) Jews were disguised as Muslims at a Paris Mosque by immigrants from North Africa. We simply must not marginilize the relations between Jews and Muslims by showing instances of crime between these two groups which go against the very rich history between Muslims and Jews.

Goater, we finally have a few posts which show Muslims and Jews working together and prospering, again without Jews, the Islamic Golden age is not as effective. Why try and destroy these posts?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. Don't whitewash history to make it seem happier and more peaceful than it was.

Just know that my thesis in this specific argument is showing how Jews and Muslims work together for positive outcomes. Of course there were instances of crime/disagreements between Jews and Muslims through the years , this happens everywhere through history, there were also economic depressions and famines. But again, many Muslim countries welcomed Jews and in many cases both of these groups lived in harmony, enjoying great success thru the years.

The forcible removal was for more a Spanish thing than a Catholic thing. The Pope tried to reduce the Inquisition's reach and powers and didn't approve of the expulsion.