Sometimes its helpful to address a problem from the standpoint of what would be ideal. I'll play dm to keep things in context. If you had ability to change anything how might you set things up to be ideal? Kinda like what would your heaven be like given you can change even the laws of the universe.

I think in my ideal society we play more and work less, and our progress would be aimed at allowing that to even higher degrees. In my ideal the true ambition of existence is to better oneself mentally and physically while pursuing pleasure, and to be decent enough to allow others to do the same.

I often feel the current world is pressed into a never-ending circle of "rational productivity" where the goal of this rational productivity is to reach even higher levels of rational productivity. It is as if the ultimate transcendence of human being is to become a self-propelled cardboard box.

I think it puts religion into an interesting perspective, as you would almost have to be religious to think this makes much sense.

Then again, it could be that I am just lazy. I do "walk the walk" however... I put quite a bit of effort into bettering myself both physically and mentally.

I'll tell you what I'd do, man: two chicks at the same time, man. I always wanted to do that, man. And I think if I were a universe changing deity, I could hook that up, too; 'cause chicks dig dudes with universe changing powers.

Keep in mind you can change bigger laws than society.

I think you point that capitalism seeks to maximize profit, where an ideal economy seeks to maximize efficiency.
What do you mean by rational (it sounds irrational to me)


bah I deleted your comment on religion, I wonder if you mean it is spiritual, but not religious in the context of religions today?

This would be something many might go to first, but you can also do things like infinite orgasms or just get rid of such desires altogether.

Which way to go?

Making everyone watch Office Space would definitely be high on the list.

I prefer to work with what I know and work from there. Once we progress we can repeat the process. Staircase model. I guess I'm a rational productivist too.

It's a joke really. I think "rationality" is a very confused concept. It's really a word that should be used about the best way to attain a goal, but it is very often used to make claims about what the goal should be and then it tends to become tautological.

I think for some (but far from all) religion makes sense of things by giving a goal, and proceeds to survive because the goal is neither tangible nor measurable. I don't like the term spiritual nor the term supernatural. I think the first one creates an arbitrary divide of beliefs, and the second an arbitrary divide of phenomena.

If you think it and feel it, you think it and feel it. If it happens, it happens. That's all the basic taxonomy I need on beliefs and phenomena, and then any philosophical and skeptical focus can be applied at examining exactly what took place (and if it took place) instead of what shelf to put it on.

The ideal is to have nothing, that there is nothing. I think that would be very simple.

An ideal world would clearly have a newguy1234 thread about ideality in every forum. So far we have:

ATF: Locked, Dear Forum Council: The introduction of the ideals of global human rights.
BFI: Open (But 0 replies) Lecture: Ideal Money
NVG: Locked, Ideal Poker
Politics: Open, Global Human Rights "I think its insane even as an ideal that that we don't have global human rights"

And we now can add:
RGT: Open, Ideality

Progress is being made.

Is that better than everyone having everything they want?

Although we are both trolling the same forum, I think there is a giant difference between how I spend my day, and how you are spending yours.

but how would that work? how can everyone have everything simultaneously. a shared everything that everyone has? doesn't work, just look at our current situation.

having nothing and no one works. do you see?

At least newguy1234, who I'm pretty sure thought you were serious

Well you get god powers so you could prob arrange it pretty easy.

Ah I read it as 'the office' and so I just nodded my head yes. Prob have to go back and watch it.

So Im god and can do anything. Pretty boring thread tbh.

I would just make everyone happy then by clicking my fingers.

/thread

Is it that it would bore if you really had the power?

Would they always be happy, and forever? Would they do things to fullfill their happiness or just be in a perpetual prozac state? Would you keep everyone from this world?

In a political context, I think that utopian thinking is often harmful. People often use the goal of an ideal social system as an excuse for evil actions.

Is that what we have learned? That seeking, enacting, acting the ideal = slaughter?

No.

Then maybe its politics and political idealogies that condemn our attempts at 'utopia'?

The problem is that if you assume that "A" is the Utopian ideal over other ideals, it becomes rather easy to justify actions undertaken to achieve it. Then suddenly you are left with a system of how to justify actions instead of how to judge actions

This is why morals and ethics have to be applied to actions, and not just goals.

It is also why ethics is always going to be very, very difficult. A person who claims ethics is easy is likely already on a dangerous path.

Nah, you just continually traffic in false dichotomies in your thinking, so when you try to figure out the logical implications of a statement you are almost always wrong or misleading. Yes, maybe it is. And maybe it isn't. Just giving us a maybe tells us that something is logically possible. We already knew that.

I think we would instead find that a Utopian society, cannot be approached by a foundation of (for example) violence.
I think you are probably correct and that we would be able to extrapolate this. I think the issues come up when our idea of utopia, is not ideal. Or in another way, violently attempting to create a utopia is not the acting of an ideal ideology, but instead the continued actions of our current corrupt culture.
I'd like to explore this, I'd claim we simply viewed these problems from a perspective that renders them unsolvable.

I'm looking at the result of your logic that believing in an searching for an ideal is ultimately hurtful to man, and suggesting you should double check your work.

Do we really have historical records of man attempting this?