My appeal to God's authority, correct.

No, you are arbitrarily defining God as needing a creator.

exactly. Logical fallacy. Not to mention that you're entire argument that there is a god and that he has done what you believe entirely relies on appealing to the authority of ancient middle easter goat herders. You have multiple levels of logical fallacy. I'm glad we agree.

I'm sorry, theists keep telling me everything needs a creator. They also arbitrarily decide the universe needs a creator.

You can keep coming back and giving me examples of how crappy the theist argument is but I don't know why you're trying to help me.

No, the appeal to authority fallacy does not apply here, no matter how much you want it to. I already explained why this is.

Theists, like atheists, say a lot of wrong things.

No. You didn't explain. You asserted that it was true because of your belief about god, which you assert are true because you appeal to the authority of the Bible.

Sorry. Still appealing to authority.

I agree. And you're doing it in this thread.

So next time someone uses the watchmaker argument i can say everything doesn't need a creator therefor the universe doesn't necessarily need a creator?

You do not understand the appeal to authority fallacy. As previously quoted from the article:

"This is a fallacy because the truth or falsity of the claim is not necessarily related to the personal qualities of the claimant..."

The "personal qualities" of the claimant in question, namely God, are very much a factor in the truth or falsity of His claims. What you happen to believe about the existence of God is a separate argument.

Created things need a creator, naturally occurring things do not.

That's just saying the universe was created and God wasn't and that's the way it is.

I could say uncreated things don't need a creator and there are no naturally occurring things. Not that i would though because that would be an assertion without proof.


How exactly do you know God is a naturally occurring thing and our universe is created?

Created and naturally occurring are not an exhaustive list.

Neither category contains God who is the ultimate source of both.

Feel free to start a thread on this if you are interested. It's kind of off-topic here.

ok i wasn't 100% sure before but you're giving yourself away a little too much here. obviously you are a hardcore atheist having the time of your life sitting at home playing both sides, pushing buttons trying to make everyone's head explode. not that i'm not impressed : )

Ok i see what your saying now.

We disagree there too. If there is a God and he created nature all naturally occurring things needed a creator and were created, as far as i can tell.

But alright another thread.

Pletho,

Im a Christian, and you are as arrogant, condescending and rude as I can imagine. You have zero compassion, and are doing ZERO for the cause of Christ on this forum.

If you truly own a wisdom and knowledge about spiritual matters which is worthy to be shared with others, you realize that it is by God's grace alone that you have it? If you posess anything, it is not by your qualifications, but a gift from God, yet you keep treating everyone who questions what you say as if they are an idiot and your crap doesnt stink. If you have attained some sort of enlightenment on spiritual matters from God through His word or otherwise, it is a gift from God, and it would almost certainly come with some tact and social Etiquette that lends itself to promoting the Love of God in a way that makes sense. You make ME hate Christians, with your obnoxious rhetoric and douchebag responses.

You realize that if you posess anything, its so that the sweet fragrance of God's love might be defused through you? Do you really think that is what is happening when you engage in a conversation? In my opinion, your identity is not rooted in Christ, it is rooted in your own percieved intellegence on ALL spiritual matters, so rather than defuse the fragrance of Christ, you defuse the stench of your own ego and your own worthless identity in what you claim to know.

I have no motive to write this other than to bring this to your attention, and make it clear to anyone that doesnt belive, that there is nothing about you that testifies to who Christ is and was, and that I'm ashamed to have an association with you based on what you say you belive.

Perhaps we're both missing each other's points. Every theist appeals to authority because they claim God is an authority and so it must be true.

This is further complicated because they can't prove that god exists or he said any such thing. They then appeal to the authority of the Bible. While others will point out that it has not been established that the Bible is, in fact, such an authority.

blah blah blah.

So you fine tune what they're saying. But you're still saying things need a creator for which you are not qualified to say. You then state that God, who most people dont believe exists and you can't show them otherwise, doesn't need a creator... because you just say so. Again, illogical. Unless you abide by the "I state its true because I want to believe it is so" theory of truth.

We can, of course, say the Universe is not created. And then no need for God. But theists, for some strange reason, believe everything has to be created except for their God. Why? Because they say so.

Correct, that is an appeal to authority. However, it is not an appeal to authority fallacy. Not all appeals to authority are appeal to authority fallacies.

Wait, is that an ad hominem falacy? At least in part, though it's difficult to tell since there's so little there there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Argumentum ad populum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Begging the question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Straw man fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

It's okay, he's kurto.

Of course it is. If a person disagrees with a Christian and they say its true because the Bible/God says its true - that is an appeal to authority fallacy.

No. I'm saying that you (and other theists who make this argument) cannot determine if the Universe needs a creator. That you don't have the ability to determine if the Universe is eternal or not. Because the evidence doesn't exist. No Ad Hominem there.

That's fine. Let me restate. There is no proof that God exists. You are asserting an unproven premise. You cannot prove your premise. All your arguments proceed from there.

I assume you posted this part to be ironic. (considering the last part I addressed)

I don't think so. You're ignoring the legitimate problems with your position. That's fine. I don't expect otherwise.

This is fun.

Though not especially productive.

Just opening these forums is the opposite of productive.

At least where zingers like this are concerned:

When someone you thought you were having a discussion with keeps repeating the same thing while ignoring clarifications, that borders on padded cell unproductivity.

Alrighty then.

I meant primarily that if I'm here, there's no doubt something else I should be doing. This forum serves no purpose except mental play.

My apologies. I thought your clarification amounted to "Logic doesn't apply to God" but I could be confused as to which part you are currently referring to. I thought I addressed your responses but perhaps not..

Deja vu

I did not praise them, I said they are family and have spirit and because of that they understand more than you will ever will. Maybe in other words but thats the point, you should get it by now.

No dont misinterpret my words buddy! God is the authority, I believe God's words. Its that simple.

If you went to college and got a degree from a teacher who was considered and expert in their field and you graduated with the highest grade and learned all that they taught you and believed it, would that them make you an authority on the subject if you graduated with a degree? I would think that at least it would mean you knew what you were talking about, unless your teacher was not knowldegable or you just didn't learn or study and cheated on all the tests.

Point being, God is the authority, His word is there to learn and if you agree with Gods word then you can speak with authority on the subject because you are backed by Gods word.

I never said that I have earned it............?

I know its by Gods grace, and you havent been here long enough to know what I deal with on this forum.

I am compassionate and what you call loving, at the appropriate times.

Love has teeth in it also, its not always wishy washy and bendy to the trends of the world.

Why dont you come on into the shark infested waters here and start posting a few things and lets see how it goes for you?

+1.

I see... they're completely wrong but understand more then I ever will.

Groovy.

Wrong. Because you claim to be the authority on God's words. Anyone disagrees with you even when referencing what you call God's word you claim they are wrong because you are right. You are your own self proclaimed authority.

And there likely is no God. What you call "God's word" is just the myths of 2000 year old goat herders. I'm glad you have mastered it though. Join the real world.