Sorry, I was reiterating the moral agency for emphasis, not as if it was a completely different object. Free will is admittedly a somewhat nebulous concept, and different words highlight different aspects of it better.

The line that I believe has been drawn is in free will/moral agency. I believe that this is a God-ordained distinction (Genesis 1 - God made man in his own image, and breathed life into it).

There is a difference between behaving in a manner that mimics a moral decision, and actually making moral decisions.

CS Lewis has a book called "The Four Loves" where he explores various aspects of love. The Greek language has several words for love (agape, phileo, eros, and at least one more), and the Greek portion of the Bible makes use of this variety. "Love" is a deep concept that at least has qualitative levels of expression.

I'm a mathematician by training, so I think that makes me a nit.

If I misrepresent your position, it's because I didn't understand it in the first place. Christian positions are misrepresented all the time, and it annoys me greatly -- therefore I should not engage in the same activity.

I would like to see you present something to support your claim.

Of course I am not making a claim since I think it is all nonsense, I was just asking you why you thought hell was not for eternity. Since The book of Revelation contains the image of a "lake of fire" and "burning sulphur" where "the devil, the beast, and false prophets" will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Revelation 20:10) along with those who worship the beast or receive its mark (Revelation 14:11)

I think I know why this happens and wanted to start a thread on it (but I already start too many threads imo). It's because Christians don't come to terms on...well...almost anything in the Bible.

For example,

Name as many supernatural beliefs (unique to Christianity) as you can that all Christians agree on. Off the top of my head, I can only come up with 2:

1) Jesus was the son of God.
2) Jesus was resurrected for our sins.

Christians pretty much disagree on all other supernatural claims that the Bible makes.

3) God exists?

This is taken out of context. Your first part is correct that the bible clearly states that the devil, the false prophet, and the beast will be tormented for ages and ages.

But you need to take a closer look at the second part which does not say the same thing at all.

I have broken this passage down many times in these forums. I suspect though that you are really not that concerned. Let me know if I have wrong.

You made a claim about what the Bible says.

Revelation 20:11-15

How is hell thrown into hell?

Nope.

How do you know this is what happens with animals that appear to act morally? Just because they can't talk to you to tell you, you get to assume it's different than in humans? Other than your beliefs of what the Bible says, you have no foundation for this assumption.

Evidence plz.

I looked for evidence to the contrary, all I found was:

Pope of 1903 said: “Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments”

Also Pope Benedict XVI said that "Hell really exists and is eternal”

Whether or not they can be considered to be an authority depends on which branch of Christianity you’re on. Anyway, I did not know that hell might not be for eternity since I was always told the opposite. Thanks for the information.

Oh, and sorry for ignoring the info in the brackets Our House.

You're right that I have none outside of the scriptures. But we would also disagree here even on what "morality" means, and the nature of a "moral" decision. I don't really expect there to be much to discuss here because the philosophical foundations are so far apart from each other.

What happens to the man who is born in a cave, grows up knowing only himself and lives off the land never having contact with another human being.

He knows not organized religion.

What happens to this man?

He goes to purgatory obviously. Normally he'd be judged by his deeds, but without any contact with other humans, there are no deeds to be accounted for. Plus, a person who has never had human contact cannot be trusted in heaven with other humans. He might go bat**** or something.

From my understanding of Christianity that I'm familiar with (my mom for instance), she believes that once you believe in Jesus Christ and that he can forgive all your sins your slate is forever clean and you are able to go to Heaven.

I believe they call them Born-Again Christians.

What I'm asking is by this belief how does a man who has no concept of Jesus get in? Does God make exceptions?

Every answer I've heard on this says that the person is judged by their deeds if they have no concept of Jesus. How that applies to a person without any deeds...good luck.

Jib,

What are you getting at with this statement?

Are you trying to refute what Justin A said by telling him that his parents created him, not God?

My point is that there is an element of free will of his parents that were involved in the process. So to say that God just creates a man even though he does not have to knowing that they will go to hell is not a sound argument.

You can argue that God should not have created man at all but not that he should have refrained from creating individuals.

but everyone seems to avoid the former argument.

wtf is with ppl in rgt having such a hard on for australia

there are no pygmies here afaik.

If you feel posters here are avoiding one of your arguments I urge you to start a new thread and I can pretty much guarantee you'll have it addressed by multiple posters.

As for your first point that there is an element of free will....that doesn't make sense to me. I don't think you can have an element of free will - you either do or you don't.

Maybe I'm missing something about what you're saying.

i dont really see how the parents are the cause the of the specific individual/soul whatever that is born...yeah, they are the creator of the baby in our world, but couldn't god just choose to put the soul or individual of a person heaven bound in the body and never put in a soul/individual that would be hell bound?

Well I do not believe that when someone is born that they are innately hell bound or heaven bound.

It is their life that decides that.

Except my answer which seems to have been ignored by the majority on here.

Did you hide it in a 4,000 word post?

lol. awesome.

Pletho, please take no offense to the above comment. But I, like many, others see a novel and just can't make it though.

+1