This is a start!

So Examples B & C are out for you. Example A might be closer, but still needs some redefining. Please make an Example D to show us where you're coming from.

So what you are trying to argue is that because you are jumping in a pool that means that you are not helping the poor in Africa? That is a little far fetched.

At a certain point taking leisure time over everything else would be a moral decision. But that is not what you said.

I would say this

Evil A >=< Evil B
Good A >=< Good A

Evil != Good

But I would not say that there is a middle ground when it comes to moral decisions. But that is not to say that everything must be a moral decision.

ok...i guess your last sentence makes things a little bit clearer...is it possible that the severity of not giving to charity is so miniscule as to be of no concern to god? for if not helping the poor is evil than anyone with any possessions that could go towards helping others is evil...this is quite an impossible stardard to live by...

I don't follow. Can you use numbers or something instead? (like the other examples)

Jib,

Which of these do you consider to be moral decisions?

1) Having consensual sex with your homosexual partner.
2) Having consensual sex with your girlfriend.
3) Having consensual sex with your wife.

Your answers will explain a lot.

All 3

Wow...I would've bet you'd say 1&2, but not 3.

I will assume that you'd consider having sex with your wife to be a good thing in terms of morality. But, this now leaves you with an interesting moral dilemma. According to your previous logic, not having sex with your wife tonight would be evil. (since it IS a moral decision which, by your definition, cannot be neutral...and both choices cannot be good)

You would be correct. Now keep in mind that we are using the word evil to define everything here. Evil as a word has a pretty terrible connotation. But I am using it more in a sense of not good.

The bible tells us to have sex with our spouse as it decreases the temptation to cheat on our spouse or to lust after others.

Now if neither you or your wife liked having sex, then that would be a different story. But with holding sex from your spouse is not a good thing.

Again, keep in mind that I am not making any hard and fast rules here. I am not saying that every time that you do not have sex with you spouse you are sinning.

Every second? Minute? Hour? Day? Week? Month?

The Bible should have the answer to this. If it doesn't, then it has a lot of balls to tell you that it provides you with absolute morality.

does your last paragraph contradict what you say in post #25?

if you have the option of a +moral decision and you don't do it then you have made a
-moral decision

No, because what I am describing in the last paragraph is that the moral decision is really spread out amongst many little decision.

You are trying to way over simplify things.

Poor Jib, taking on the whole world again..

These asinine examples you are trying to make Jib accountable for are ridiculous! The only time any of these are of importance is when they are important to you and you fail to act on them. If something inside of your head is telling you to do something and you don't do it, only then does it become an issue. And the "degree" of the issue is relevant only to the individual whose conscience it is affecting.

How many times do you "feel" anything before you decide to take a sip of water? Other then thirst, you shouldn't be feeling too much. If you don't jump in a pool because well, you just don't, then I see no issue. If donating to charity doesn't cross your mind then how can you even measure it in terms of a degree of good or evil? Now if you have a lot of money and your conscience is telling you that you should be doing something to help others with it, but you decide not to because you can't part with your money, then I'd say there's an issue. But most of all.. this should be common sense.

There are many times that I am driving and I see someone walking down the side of the road and I think to myself that I should stop and ask them if they want a ride. But I don't. A lot of factors are involved like maybe the person is walking because they want to be, my personal safety, maybe I'll appear as a threat to the person, etc. If I feel that the situation would benefit more from my attempt then by doing nothing then I'd say by doing nothing I am going against my conscience. Is this evil? If I have to answer yes or no I'd say yes.

I'll admit that I've driven past people who I blieve could have benefited from my attempt. And yes, I feel guity because of it. And yes, the thought of Jesus's own words come right into my mind about not helping others is not helping Him. So taking that into account I would say that if I were to be judged one day, I wouldn't be getting a mark on the "God" side of the board because of it.

So yes OH I think there are degrees of good and evil and anything in between is just not considered because well, it's not considered, by you the individual.

We have had this talk many times. Although I believe that there is an absolute moral code, that does not mean that we are always 100% aware of what the "right" thing to do is.

Also, I believe that intent has much do with morality.

Did I refuse sex with my wife because I have food poisoning?

Or did I refuse sex with my wife because I have an early day and I feel my extra sleep is worth more than making my wife happy?

Good post Erf. Basically what you're saying is that it all boils down to intent.

There is one part I take issue with however:

It's a pretty well established fact that voices in your head, conscience, etc. are based on prejudices...and not some mysterious voice of God. If you were raised or influenced to feel guilty about X, you will feel guilty about X. You're conscience is only a reliable source for your own relative morality. This is pretty much the reason that people read something like the Bible and see what they want to see. The fact that many of us agree on what's right and wrong is insignificant. It's cultural. And if you don't believe me, go visit some backwards-ass society (like Saudi Arabia, or OT times) and compare.

For the first time ever OH, I think we agree on something.

To each their own..

Be true to ones self..

..except for the voice inside your head part, of course.

And so I'm not being difficult here I will say that I don't actually think the "voice" is God, but that it's Gods will that is affecting what the "voice" is saying to you.

So for whatever outside influences are involved, i.e. cultural or raising habits, I think it would be possible for you to drive past the same person that I feel guilty about, and for you to feel nothing. And because of that, if we both were to be judged, only I would be held accountable.

But you shouldn't feel like you should be held accountable. This is where we differ. I used to feel guilt in situations like this, but I don't anymore. The guilt I used to feel was a result of my (Catholic) upbringing.

Now, I'm able to assess the situation first and draw conclusions (and possibly experience guilt) later. The brain works strangely. It processes a ridiculous number of thoughts per second. Something like this:

**Person walking on the side of the road...should I offer to give them a ride or not?...let's say I offer to help, what could happen...a% they're insulted because I'm interfering with their walk...b% they're scared of me hurting them...c% they try to hurt me...z% they are gracious for the ride...is z% greater than a%+b%+c% combined?...if yes, I should stop...if no, I should drive by...if I should stop but I don't, I should feel guilty about it...if I should stop, I will...if I should drive by but I don't I'm an idiot...if I should drive by, I will...**

All of this happens in my brain within an instant. Where we differ (based on what you're saying) is how the thought process starts off. Your brain might be more like this:

**Person walking on the side of the road...I should feel guilty if I don't stop to pick them up...[and then the rest]**

The guilt comes first for you! I used to think that way when I was religious, but now I'm free to not have to jump to conclusions BEFORE weighing the situation.

First of all I don't think people can fault their feelings. If I feel a certain way then that's just how it is. And even though it can suck at times, to be honest with you, I'm pretty proud of the person I am and the feelings I do have. And for any of that to change would mean I would deliberately have to go against my own will to change it.

You say that you used to feel that way, but not anymore. I'd be willing to bet that you are not the same person you were when you were a child. And by that I mean that you probably have built up a "defense against the world" so-to-speak so that you can be a dick to society if you have to. I can't do that. I've tried to be a different person then who I really am and by attempting to do so I had to cover up "who I am" with drugs and a lifestyle that wasn't really me.

It's my opinion that the little boy that all of us used to be never really leaves us, we just build walls to protect that person inside and by doing so, we change. We change because we have to in order to protect ourselves. But as you can see, I don't protect myself from humiliation and I'm not afraid to be different then the world. If you were to remember the kid you were, you might find that the lil' Our House was someone that would feel bad for someone walking down the road if he felt they needed a friend.

Erf, feeling bad for a person walking down the road and feeling guilty for not doing anything to help them are two very different things.

I heard more than one christian in this forum that evil is evil and there are no degrees. are they too embarrassed to vote or they didn't see the poll?

Haha, I'm the wrecker voting for B. 'Good' and 'Evil' are invalid concepts* IMO, but as applied by the majority of people I've encountered in my life, A is by far the less common attitude.



*Assuming we're talking about objective absolutes.

so right now i'm posting on two plus two. would you characterize this as a good or evil action?

Common sense would tell me that if I was sincerely curious, it was most likely good. And if I was being a smart-ass, most likely evil.

And if you, like most of us, are just staring at the screen blankly?