Do You Believe In Degrees Of Good & Evil? - Religion, God, and Theology

This thread might help clear some things up about Biblical Morality, the problem of evil, God's omnibenevolence, etc.

Example A:

100 - Pure good
75 - Very good
50 - Pretty good
25 - Somewhat good
0 -- Neutral
-25 - Somewhat evil
-50 - Pretty evil
-75 - Very evil
-100 - Pure evil

Example B:

1 - Good
0 -- Neutral
-1 - Evil

Would you choose something along the lines of Example A or Example B? (if you think there's an Example C or more, elaborate plz)

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02-25-2009 , 08:02 AM

RoosterCAD

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I believe in example A

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02-25-2009 , 04:07 PM

Our House

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I guess one of the points of this OP (nobody has chosen Example B so far) is...

Do you really need to have -100 to be able to experience 100?

If life contains -100, couldn't God easily cap evil at -50 (more benevolent) or -25 (even more benevolent) or 0 (omnibenevolent)?

There's seems to be a problem with God's benevolence that no theist has really been able to properly address. A free will argument just doesn't cut it. Evil CLEARLY doesn't need to be able to be manifested at -100 for free will to still exist AND for us to be able to experience a contrasted goodness.

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02-25-2009 , 04:13 PM

Autocratic

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I feel like B might even be a bad representation of what a lot of theists claim to believe. I remember an argument in a philosophy class over this - lots of Christians claim that evil is simply lacking God. If something is without God/goodness, it is evil. This was Augustine's argument, I believe. This seems to dismiss the idea of "neutral" actions, which are without any goodness but still out of place if classified as evil.

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02-25-2009 , 04:17 PM

Our House

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Yeah, I get tired of hearing things like "evil is the absence of good" and "hate is the absence of love". These are just plain stupid ideas.

The absence of good is not-good...not evil.
The absence of loving is not-loving...not hating.
The absence of having an orgasm is not having an orgasm...not castration.

EDIT: you don't need the existence of castration to experience the awesomeness of an orgasm.

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02-25-2009 , 05:20 PM

Bulletproof Monk

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Example C:

Concepts like good and evil are for children's stories.

People just do things.

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02-25-2009 , 05:22 PM

Jibninjas

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Quote:

EDIT: you don't need the existence of castration to experience the awesomeness of an orgasm.

But you do need the existence of genitals.

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02-25-2009 , 05:29 PM

Autocratic

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibninjas

But you do need the existence of genitals.

Unless God deemed otherwise, which he easily could have upon creating orgasms and/or genitals.

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02-25-2009 , 05:43 PM

dknightx

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Originally Posted by Our House

wow, this is *exactly* what I was trying to say in the other free will thread. I'm glad you could put it more eloquently. The idea that evil is necessary for freewill is misguided.

Jib simply responded with "having the choice to kind of love God and really love God is not a choice".

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02-25-2009 , 06:22 PM

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Jibninjas

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Originally Posted by Autocratic

Unless God deemed otherwise, which he easily could have upon creating orgasms and/or genitals.

This is just wrong. By definition castration deals with genitals. So in order for castration to exist there would need to be genitals.

If not you would then be talking about something completely different. And if that were the case you would just be complaining about something else.

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02-25-2009 , 06:31 PM

#11

Jibninjas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Our House

The negation of good is evil. To not do good is to do evil.

The negation of good is not less good. That is absurd and that is what you are trying to say.

If God is all that is good then to not chose God is to not chose good. And as said before the negation of good is evil.

It's a tautology.

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02-25-2009 , 06:43 PM

#12

kurto

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How does A and B account for the idea that good and evil is often a matter of perspective?

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02-25-2009 , 06:51 PM

#13

Autocratic

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibninjas

I was referring to orgasms, not castration.

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02-25-2009 , 06:52 PM

#14

Autocratic

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibninjas

The negation of good is evil. To not do good is to do evil.

So both picking up a pen and placing it back down where it was, which is not doing any good, and murdering a human being, also not doing any good, are evil on the scale of one to evil?

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02-25-2009 , 06:53 PM

#15

Bulletproof Monk

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kurto

How does A and B account for the idea that good and evil is often a matter of perspective?

C takes this in to account fwiw

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02-25-2009 , 06:55 PM

#16

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibninjas

The negation of good is evil. To not do good is to do evil.

The negation of good is not less good. That is absurd and that is what you are trying to say.

What on earth are you talking about?

Someone is swimming in a pool and you're not.

If you jump in and play volleyball, or swim, or hang out with them, or bring them a cool lemonade, you're doing good.

If you jump in and hold their head underwater to drown them, you're doing evil.

If you don't do anything at all, you're...?

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02-25-2009 , 06:58 PM

#17

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Example C (for Jib):

100 - Pure good
75 - Very good
50 - Pretty good
25 - Somewhat good
0 -- Evil

Yes?

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02-25-2009 , 07:36 PM

#18

Jibninjas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Our House

God says to not hurt your fellow man(good). So to turn from God is to hurt your fellow man(evil)

God says to help your fellow man(good). So to turn from God is to not help your fellow man(evil).

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02-25-2009 , 07:40 PM

#19

thirddan

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there is no "nothing/neutral" mode?

so anytime i could have done something good and chose to ignore the situation i have done evil? no wonder everyone is so sinful, its an impossible standard to live up to...

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02-25-2009 , 07:41 PM

#20

dknightx

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can you ever just answer a question straight up? just answer this question:

Is taking a sip of water from my bottle of water good, evil, or nuetral?

If its nuetral, then what you just said about "To not do good is to do evil." wouldn't make sense.

If its good, then why?

If its evil, then why?

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02-25-2009 , 08:17 PM

#21

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibninjas

God says to not hurt your fellow man(good). So to turn from God is to hurt your fellow man(evil)

Unless commanded to do so by God of course.

It must suck having to keep changing your "absolute" values for each situation. Why not just accept that they're not absolute in the first place and save yourself the aggravation of having to justify your conclusion/premise unconditionally?

/tangent - because you didn't answer whether it was good, bad, or neutral to not jump in the swimming pool at all.

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02-25-2009 , 08:39 PM

#22

Jibninjas

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Quote:

It must suck having to keep changing your "absolute" values for each situation. Why not just accept that they're not absolute in the first place and save yourself the aggravation of having to justify your conclusion/premise unconditionally?

I spoke nothing about absolutes. This is merely an example.

Quote:

/tangent - because you didn't answer whether it was good, bad, or neutral to not jump in the swimming pool at all.

Your analogy was fallacious to begin with. Jumping in a pool is not a moral decision, nor does it have anything to do with hurting someone. So just ignored it.

Blowing my nose is also not a moral decision. That does not mean that God can just replace rape with blowing your nose. Your comparison is that silly

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02-25-2009 , 08:44 PM

#23

thirddan

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what about something like giving money to charity?
I can give charity > good
I can do nothing > neutral
I can steal money from charity > evil

is this accurate?

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02-25-2009 , 08:48 PM

#24

Our House

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibninjas

Jumping in a pool is not a moral decision

Blowing my nose is also not a moral decision

Sigh.

EVERYTHING not necessary for your own survival or well-being (i.e. making sure you're not experiencing pain, and not suffering) is a moral decision. Rationalize it however you want, but every second you spend not helping others is a decision to do something else...whether you realize it or not.

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02-25-2009 , 08:51 PM

#25

Jibninjas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by thirddan

what about something like giving money to charity?
I can give charity > good
I can do nothing > neutral
I can steal money from charity > evil

is this accurate?

I would say that you have to look at something like charity in a broader sense of helping others and helping the poor.

Helping other/poor = good
Not helping others/poor = evil.

Now bare in mind that I do believe that there are severities of evil.

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