Belief as a Necessary Condition for Salvation - Page 4 - Religion, God, and Theology

Not if you knew that if it was not made that way that man would screw it up......

Thankfully he knew how to set it up that it was written and organized in such a way that man couldn't screw it up and that man could understand it the way he meant it to be understood if they would just obey what is written in it....

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10-13-2009 , 08:35 PM

#77

batair

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Originally Posted by Pletho

If i was God and all powerful....i could inspire a book that didn't need to be divided and man could not screw up. I would probably just wait for moving pictures to come out though, video is much more affective at getting your message out.

The op's question is more interesting though. Tell me why it's just for God to allow me to reject him and send myself to hell (sure...i still say he made the rule he's sending me). I cant force myself to believe. It's a setup.

Last edited by batair; 10-13-2009 at 08:48 PM.

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10-13-2009 , 08:42 PM

#78

Arouet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pletho

You're right, there's only one way to interpret the bible, that's why there's such uniformity in belief out there.

Pletho: how many true Christians do you think are out there? What percentage of people in this world do you think go to heaven?

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10-13-2009 , 08:45 PM

#79

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

If i was God and all powerful....i could inspire a book that didn't need to be divided and man could not screw up.

The op's question is more interesting though. Tell me why it's just for God to allow me to reject him and send myself to hell (sure...i still say he made the rule he's sending me). I cant force myself to believe. It's a setup.

Freewill

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10-13-2009 , 08:47 PM

#80

Arouet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pletho

Freewill

Do you really believe that "belief" is subject to free will?

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10-13-2009 , 08:53 PM

#81

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Arouet

I know I am right, the reason for all the division amongst the believers is that they DO NOT RIGHTY DIVIDE the word.

In the world? I do not know, I can tell you that ALL, 100% of those who are Chrisians as defined by the bible have eternal life.

The majority of Christians do not rightly divide the word, but that does not mean no eternal life.

Now if someone who was an unbeliever did not correctly understand or literaly obey Romans 10:9,10 then they would have no chance at eternal life until they did it. Its the main verse and truth that enables a person to recieve the new birth.

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10-13-2009 , 08:56 PM

#82

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Arouet

Do you really believe that "belief" is subject to free will?

Well, you tell me? Lets just use something simple. If you hear a story or a rumor it doesn't matter, do you have the right, the freedom to choose to believe it or not. Or do you believe that you are automatically going to believe one way or another based on some genetic programming?

Also it would be quite stupid and futile for God to tell someone to believe if they did not have the ability to believe.

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10-13-2009 , 09:00 PM

#83

Arouet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pletho

I will give you my honest opinion on your question, but first indulge me if you will and play a little game that should not offend your religious sensibilities in the slightest.

I want you to choose to believe that the computer you are reading this post on is purple (or: if it is already purple then green). Can you do it?

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10-13-2009 , 09:07 PM

#84

batair

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Originally Posted by Pletho

Freewill

It's a good song.

But if you cant force yourself to believe in the Easter bunny right now then you know its unfair to ask me to do the same with God.

You still didn't give a good reason for God writing a book in riddles that my entirety depends on. I have never been good at riddles. He could of kept people from messing with his book, he's God, he must want it confusing.

Last edited by batair; 10-13-2009 at 09:09 PM. Reason: Arouet beat my slow pony

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10-13-2009 , 09:11 PM

#85

Jibninjas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

LOL, not a bad song, it's funny though because I just linked to another song in another thread as a play on words also like two minutes ago.

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10-13-2009 , 09:12 PM

#86

alewis21

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Today there are 7 billion people on earth and 2 billion of them are Christian. I'll be generous and say they all truly believe Christ is their Savior (this is not the case).

According to some, if everyone died today, 27% of us will go to heaven at most. The other 63% will burn in hell.

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10-13-2009 , 09:16 PM

#87

batair

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Originally Posted by Jibninjas

LOL, not a bad song, it's funny though because I just linked to another song in another thread as a play on words also like two minutes ago.

Now you see if it was a Rush song i would have to start to reconsider things...

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10-13-2009 , 09:23 PM

#88

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Arouet

You are missing the point and you mis-understand the mechanics of believing, you also do not understand the boundries of believing.

I am going to teach you "the law of believing" so that you understand, it will take me a while to help you understand because you need to understand some other things first before it makes sense to you.

So please be patient, this is something I will not forget to write you back about, but I cannot do it justice in one short post I will need more space and time to lay it out so that it makes sense......

I could just go off the top of my head but I want to be thorough enough for you to understand. And anyone who reads the post.

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10-13-2009 , 09:26 PM

#89

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by alewis21

Well all I can say to you is that all men will go to hell, as hell is defined in the bible. Only Christian will have eternal life, 100% of them.

The problem is that people do not know what hell means biblically, they get it confused with the lake of fire, which are not the same.

I have a post on hell I will find it so you can read what hell means biblically.

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Re: Where Is Heaven? Where Is Hell?

Heaven has two main defintions biblically.

1. Any place above the ground in the physical sense.
2. The spiritual realm in the spirtual sense.

The majority of times when you see this word it falls into one of these catagories.

Hell is used differently a few ways.

The hebrew word sheol "meaning gravedom" is translated into three different words in the old testament.

1. Hell
2. Grave
3. Pit

The greek word hades as "meaning gravedom" is translated in the new testament as

1. Hell
2. Grave

The hebrew word qeber, meaning a burying place for dead bodies is translated by 6 english words

1. Grave
2. Graves
3. Burial
4. Burying Place
5. Sepulchre
6. Sepulchres

The greek word mnemeion as a burying place for dead bodies is translated by 6 english words in the King James version.

1. Grave
2. Graves
3. Tomb
4. Tombs
5. Sepulchre
6. Sepulchres

Biblically the word death is translated from the word thanatos meaning the natural end of earthly existance. Thanatos is not a instantaneous occurence when one expires, it is a continuing state of being. Release from this state of being, thanatos (death) hinges upon the return of Christ.

People who are in thanatos, the state of being, called death, which is continual, are in the "grave" (hades in greek and sheol in hebrew) these words are interchangebly translated hell, grave and pit.

Hell (hades and sheol) is never translated or meant to be understood as the place of destruction, like most religous Christians teach and mainstream Christianity teaches. Hell is ALWAYS the continuing state of the dead. The best and most accurate translation of the words hades and sheol, would be "gravedom".

Gravedom is the state in which all the dead dwell; it is not a qeber, a spot where a body is buried on land or sea. The biblical description of gravedom (the kingdom of all those in the grave-the dead), sheol or hades, is a place where there is NO consciousness and no remembrance.

Because there is no consciousness in death, there is no awareness of time for the dead person. So the moment of a mans death becomes, in a sense of time for him, the moment of Christs return. But within the demension of time, the moment of a man's death is neither his gathering together unto Christ nor his ressurection. In the sense of time he does not go immediately to heaven, but descends into gravedom, hell, the state, the kingdom of the dead.

Last edited by Pletho; 10-13-2009 at 09:34 PM.

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10-13-2009 , 09:36 PM

#90

batair

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Originally Posted by Pletho

Well all I can say to you is that all men will go to hell, as hell is defined in the bible. Only Christian will have eternal life, 100% of them.

What if you have someone who has read, believed, accepted all that Romans 10:9,10 says and they have eternal life. Now say they fall off the wagon and become truly evil, killing, raping, pillaging. Does God interfere with their free will and transform them into a good being? Or does he let evil into heaven?

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10-13-2009 , 09:49 PM

#91

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

It is possible for that to happen for sure.

They are evil you are right but that which was created inside of them which enables them to have eternal life, holy spirit cannot be lost, therefore they will go to heaven not matter what.

They are sealed with the holy spirit on the inside they cannot lose it.'

No God does not transform them ever. And if they do all of that stuff they should be locked up for life or worse.

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10-13-2009 , 09:55 PM

#92

batair

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pletho

Isn't that a problem. It means there is evil in heaven a place that is supposed to be perfectly good.

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10-13-2009 , 11:56 PM

#93

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

Isn't that a problem. It means there is evil in heaven a place that is supposed to be perfectly good.

Not at all, the flesh is what evil, they will have new perfect spiriutal bodies not capable of evil...........

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10-14-2009 , 12:32 AM

#94

batair

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Originally Posted by Pletho

Not at all, the flesh is what evil, they will have new perfect spiriutal bodies not capable of evil...........

If God gives an evil saved person a new perfect spiritual body then isn't he transforming their nature? Wouldn't it also mean if that new spiritual body is incapable of evil they will have no free will?

Last edited by batair; 10-14-2009 at 12:41 AM. Reason: I know God doesn't give us a new spiritual body we give it to ourselves....in the system he setup

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10-14-2009 , 12:59 AM

#95

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

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10-14-2009 , 01:13 AM

#96

batair

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Originally Posted by Pletho

Doesn't this mean there is no free will if evil saved people in their new spiritual bodies are incapable of evil?

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10-14-2009 , 10:41 AM

#97

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

Doesn't this mean there is no free will if evil saved people in their new spiritual bodies are incapable of evil?

No not at all, If I were to tell you that if you put your arm in the way of a chain saw you would lose it and no longer have an arm and you did it.

Then you would no longer have an arm by your choice or by acccident, your freewill was not overrided.

If a person gets born agian there are many places that say they will have eternal life and in that eternal life their new nature will not be capable of evil.

If there isw no option of evil then freewill is not overriden at all, the option of evil is non existant. The new spritual body had no evil possibilitites in it.

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10-14-2009 , 01:42 PM

#98

Praxising

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Quote:

Originally Posted by alewis21

Nah. Purgatory. Most folks end up there with heaven as their final and inevitable destination. Hell isn't permanent, either.

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10-14-2009 , 01:47 PM

#99

batair

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Originally Posted by Pletho

If you take away the option to do evil. And free will is the option to do good or evil. You cant have it. You just amputated one of the key ingredients of free will, the ability to do evil. Hell even the angles have the ability to do evil in heaven. That's why a bunch of um got booted.

Last edited by batair; 10-14-2009 at 01:56 PM.

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10-14-2009 , 07:14 PM

#100

Pletho

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

Here how it works. The nature of fire is to burn, the nature of ice is to be cold, th enature of God who is love is to love, the nature of man who has imperfect flesh is to sin, the nature of a perfect spritual person is perfection in their actions.

There is no evil nature at all in the new spiritual body, because its new in quality, its designed only for good. You will have free will only in the catagory of Good, not bad meaning you can do anything but something evil. Thats the simplicity of it, if you do not understand or do not like it, just argue with God, I didn't set things up He did.....

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