For the sake of argument, let's assume for a minute that the Christian God exists. I think that almost all Christians here in RGT would agree that belief that Jesus is our savior is a necessary condition for salvation. I think that all of those same Christians would also agree that God requiring said belief is perfectly just.

Let's examine some reasons for why people do not believe in Jesus.

1) They've never heard of Jesus.
2) They've heard of Jesus but they are very deluded in believing another religion, and they believe that even questioning their own beliefs would be wrong.
3) They have examined the evidence for Jesus and have come to the wrong conclusion (remember we're assuming God's existence) on accident. In other words these types are honestly searching for truth and have just made a mistake.
4) They have heard the Jesus story, but have never been interested enough to give it more than a passing thought, and never put in the time to study the evidence.
5) They don't believe in Jesus because of some ulterior motive.

We can ignore #1 because I think most Christians agree that belief is not a necessary condition for those who have never heard the gospel.

People in categories 2 and 3 are actually somewhat similar in that they both have come to the wrong conclusion while trying very hard to do the right thing. If a Muslim, for example, thinks that they would be sinning if they studied the Bible or looked into any other religions, can they be blamed for not believing in Jesus? Is it just for these people to be denied salvation because of their deluded beliefs? Similarly, can a category 3 person be blamed for doing their best to find the truth and failing?

Category 4 is a bit tougher. These people have never seriously considered the idea that Jesus might actually be divine. But why should they? To believe that Christianity is important enough to study and find out the truth for yourself, you must first believe that Christianity might be true! In other words, it would not be reasonable to expect a person who is not a theist to inspect the claims of every religion that claims it is very important that they do so. It is rare that a Christian takes the time to thoroughly investigate the claims of Hinduism, even though a Hindi would say that they should because it's such an important question.

That brings us to category 5. I'm not even sure what sort of person would go into this category, but let's just say this category exists and that people in this category to deserve to be denied salvation.

The point of all this is that in order to believe that it is just that a belief in Jesus is a necessary condition for salvation, you must believe that for each of categories 2, 3, and 4, either there are no people in that category, or that it is perfectly just to deny these people salvation. I am aware that there are certainly more reasons for disbelief than the ones I have given, but that does not affect my argument and my previous statement is still valid.

There's my argument, I welcome all attempts to tear it apart.

I disagree. And I think that the only people that you are going to get to agree to this is Pletho and Splendour. So...have fun with this thread.

God is going to judge commensurate with your experience/exposure. At least thats Stu's opinion.

For instance, suppose you were captured by space aliens and while they were gang probing your nether regions they gave you some earthly entertainment to watch. But you're a Hindu and they put on Benny Hinn. Well now you're judged differently for having seen Benny Hinn preach the gospel than having not seen him.

Actually the neccessary requirement for salvation, wholness eternal life, recieving holy spirit, ect. is confessing Jesus Christ as you lord and believing God raised him from the dead.

In that you beleive he is the son of God and not God and you obviously believe he is the savior of mankind. But there is more to it.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other (name): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Other than the man Jesus Christ, not buddha, muhhammad, joseph smith, Al Gore, Obama, on and on..........

I think that this category could include the people that have heard of Jesus through say mainstream Christianity and because it is such a distorted view of God and Jesus that they feel morally obligated to reject him. You could include these people in the "never hearing of Jesus" group as well.

NotReady definitely believes this unless he has changed his views in the last year or so.

The point of category 5 was that it should include people that actually deserve to be denied salvation. I think the "feel morally obligated" from your post implies they're trying to do what they think is right.

He doesn't. There's no such thing as a "Christian God." There's just the One. Hence, Christians profess: "I believe in One God...." when they say the Creed. We could assume Jesus Christ exists, however. I seriously doubt it. You'd have to take some sort of survey and that would have to include lurkers and of course, they ain't talking.

You gotta mouse in your pocket, son? First, no one anywhere who has ever been born, except Jesus, "deserves" salvation. Not. One. Nor is there anyone who is denied salvation, there are unfortunately a whole slew of people who refuse it. (You might want to rethink that, BTW, and see about accepting the best free gift ever offered - but that's another thread.)

I want to know something, being as you are all about how Christians don't look into other faiths like Hinduism. You ever considered actually asking us about our beliefs instead of making these ludicrous assumptions? Or did you ever consider that you could look into Christianity yourself and maybe find better sources than a poker forum? However...

Which part of "God does not wish for even one to be lost" do you not understand? This isn't really about what anyone believes, it's about what we can understand and so, maybe we will look to the Church or some Churches that have been in existence for a couple thousand years and see what the opinions are

Two words: invincible ignorance. You can look that up sometime.

What we need to do to get to the place we all desire is follow the Way. Jesus showed it to us. Christ now is calling us. You, too. You think a Hindu doesn't follow the Way? You think no atheists follow Jesus? Many do. The ones who believe in giving a **** about others, who practice humility and acceptance and forgiveness and who know that love is not something you feel it is something you do.

We need to follow Him, do as He did as well as we can and we don't have to ever have heard His name or believe some crappy version of evangelization. A lot of people who have vigorously denied they believe one word of Scripture are following Christ, and a whole lot better than I am. And I do believe the Gospels.

There sure are a lot of pascal's wager threads for no one believing belief is necessary.

More than half of Christians tend to believe that you are not drawing dead, though you are drawing thin, even if you disbelieve that Jesus is the son of God, if you do at least believe that his teachings should be followed, you try hard to follow him, and you do believe in his father. That includes Splendour I think. And the Pope. It doesn't include Brad 1970 or Pletho. Not Ready is on the fence and will shortly be announcing that he has found reasons to be in Jib's camp.

I wonder how many Christians here really do believe this. I certainly don't.

You're not going to find a lot of people in this forum that fit into category 1,2, or 4. Maybe you'll find someone that fits into category 3, but that's about it.

I think the Bible clearly teaches that it is necessary to repent and accept Christ as savior. I also think it teaches that God will judge according to the light each person has so that accepting Christ as savior is not formulaic - you don't have to repeat the prayer stated by evangelicals, for instance. What God wants first is the admission that you are a sinner and deserve His condemnation. Then He wants you to trust in Him for salvation. That normally means believing in Jesus and I will not say you can know of Christ, not accept Him, and be saved. For those who have not heard of Christ, and perhaps for those who have heard His name but not heard the gospel presented correctly, I believe it's possible to repent and seek God's forgiveness.

As far as I can tell that applies to no one who reads this forum regularly. The gospel has been clearly presented many times by me and many others. At times it has been misrepresented but enough accurate information and references have been given that no one who is truly seeking has any excuse. You don't have to believe me or any other theist poster - you have the information to find out for yourself.

But it's God's call - all any human can do is tell you what we think God's word reveals. How you respond to that is what God will use to judge.


Acts 4:
11"He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.
12"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

John 14:
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

John 3:
18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

I think that's fairly clear.

I do not think that you have captured the Catholic view accurately with all due respect. If you actually held the view in your first sentence, you are at no disadvantage at all from everything I have encountered within Catholicism. That goes back to Catholic education in the early '60's.

The Acts 4 and John 14 passages say nothing about excplicitly believing as a condition for savlvation. They merely say that Christ is the road to salvation. There is a difference.

The John 3 passage states the term 'judged', but how can we safely assume this concludes heaven or hell?

18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

I think that it is very interesting that that this passage specifies that those who do not believe have already been judged. I have been formulating the idea that most of God's "judgment" is not active judgment at all but that it is the natural consequence of our actions. Salvation is an on going process. It is not a one time flu shot deal. I think that belief in Jesus makes the salvation process easier and allows you to get progress further. So it might be possible that the "judgment" of not believing is that the road of salvation is tougher, but not impossible.

I like this interpretation, but is there any way to validate it?

I could easily multiply passages from the NT about salvation through faith, believing in Christ for justification, etc. I picked these three because they indicate that Christ is the foundation for salvation, that no one is saved apart from Him, yet leave the door open for those who have not heard of His name(an obvious example is the people who were saved before Christ was born, read Hebrews) - they are still saved through Christ by repenting and accepting His salvation, but as I said, it doesn't have to be a man made formula. And I see no hope for anyone who has heard and rejects Christ.

The number that think you're done without Jesus is higher then 50% among American Protestants i would guess. You also have to remember even without belief in Jesus, as far as i know and what was taught, Catholic doctrine teaches that you have to be baptized for a shot. So with Catholics being the biggest sect of Christianity in the world the number that believe works and belief in God alone is enough is probably lower then 50%. I could be wrong though because a lot of Catholics and Protestants dont follow or know their doctrines.
I dont know where everyone here stands but i dont think the Pope would agree works and belief in God is enough. Im pretty sure he would say you need to be redeemed for your original sin through baptism, at the min.


I was just making the point with all the pascal's wager threads (and Jesus being God to most) there should be room for this discussion.

I am really bad at finding the passages that I am thinking about so I will present them when I can find them. But I think that there are plenty of passages that deal with salvation that do not include a "belief" per se. Jesus talks about those that those that keep his words are of him and those that do not are not of him. I feel belief is secondary. I do think that of those that believe we will also be judged more strongly.

It is possible that for some people you must believe in order to have salvation and that could be the reason why there are so many varying answer that Jesus gives when people ask him about the subject.

Still really working on it. I feel that there is support behind this concept. I am also very curious to read Greg Boyd's book that he is working on that deals directly with the idea of passive judgment.

Ugh.

"Christian God" obviously just means the God that Christians believe in.

I may have overestimated.

Some are saved, some aren't. Presumably this is based on actions those people take. If you want to nitpick over the word "deserved", fine, but don't pretend it has anything to do with my argument.

You think my only exposure to Christianity and Christians is this forum? I was a Christian most of my life until a couple years ago. I'm sure you'll just claim I wasn't a real Christian and I learned the wrong stuff.

1) God is all-powerful
2) God wishes everyone to be saved
3) Therefore, everyone is saved

Which premise do you disagree with?

Now you're claiming that moral people are by definition following Jesus. Let me guess, people that do evil are following Satan?

And you are convinced that putting him in approximately the same category as Moses equates to complete rejection? Even though, if I'm not mistaken, Catholics disagree

So you are saying that the Catholic interpretation is even more liberal than what I suggested. Similar to Jews who believe that good Christians please God. But others here are saying the opposite. You haven't encountered your fellow Catholic Peter 666 yet have you?

To RLK and David:

I'm not Catholic but I happened to know that the Church's appectance of who was saved broaded after Vatican 2 in the late 60's.

At that point the churched stated anybody who lived a 'christ like' life would be saved.

This includes Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists as well if they live their life in accordance to Christ's principles.

So to Mr. Sklansky, it seems the Catholic view is more liberal in this regard than the US fundamentalists.


To NotReady:

I would like specific passages that say that one needs excplicit belief in Christ in order to be saved.