The funny thing is, I did not intend to make an argument out of it. I just wrapped up my last session of 2013 and shared my tip results of the year and the goals I set to get there. Goals I set with the sole purpose of saving myself money and boosting my win rate. Or IOW, "I like my money and don't like giving it away".

Then I get asked why I bother to tip at all. Then I answer that I still make at least some effort for my tips to match its value in a sense. Then I get asked to elaborate. Then I try to break it down. Etc...

It was a progression where eventually some try to make you look bad. You get pushed to a point where it could appear to be grasping at straws (especially if picked up towards the latter stages of the progression without starting at the origin). This is par for the course if you don't come out from the start saying I tip at least $1 per pot and more in scale of bigger pots or whatever appeases what's 'customary'. Such is the nature of tipping threads.

It worked on you, SoCal: "Your argument was better...". My argument was manufactured by the thread.

While I do play faster and I do tip less and I do think that is reasonable (even without considering player efficiency), that is not to say I think people who play faster should or should not tip less. I just feel like I still contribute my fair share and I reasonably expect people to agree or disagree. My purpose is not to convince others that my way is right, just to look at it from another point of view.

Bottom line is I'll decide how I tip. Though if I'm asked for reasons and I provide reasons, those reasons are going to be in line with actual standards (players having the option to choose to tip however they want is the real standard) and not presumed standards. Sure, my reasons naturally will be self-serving to keep more money for myself, but that's no different than a dealer suggesting that I tip him at least $1 per pot because it's 'standard'. This is not to say that I think anyone else should tip the way I do. Though anyone else could tip this way (or any other way) if they so choose.

Good point.

Not so much

LK,

You really shouldn't tip at all. I don't think any dealers think you're doing them a favor long-term with this plan of yours, and they likely view (treat?) you as a stiff anyway, so you might as well keep it yourself.

Exactly.

Though somebody works for tips as the bulk of their pay, this does not absolve them from the reality that this is still a two way street.

For one thing: My plan is not to do dealers any favors. That just happens to be a byproduct of being a capable and aware player which has intrinsic value.

Anyway, again, the thought to never tip has crossed my mind. But I realize that basing never tipping whatsoever on reactions ITT (where the LK bias is pretty thick) is hasty (aside from the fact that I still feel like I have at lease some responsibility to contribute my share as mentioned). Overall, in practice I am treated just fine. I'm even subjected to way less ass kissing when some dealers get to know that such efforts are futile on me and I very much prefer it this way. Of course there are exceptions and I have occasionally experienced resentful dealers and memories of these sometimes stand out, but I just attribute that to immaturity and/or unprofessionalism.

ITT when the topic is tipping, and tipping is a contentious topic by nature, the sparks fly. But In reality, when I'm doing my thing, other players are doing their things, and dealers do their thing, while tipping is not being discussed, everyone just goes about their business for the most part. There is really no comparison to the treatment ITT to the treatment in practice.

Let me know when I can hand your intrinsic value to my land lady.


I appreciate the candid responses you have offered here Lester. I am always up for seeing how other people's minds work. For me, your thoughts have intrinsic value to me in reading this thread. I just don't agree with your logic. You may fool yourself into thinking you bring something to the table that won't be there if you're not there, but to convince yourself that the dealer is earning more money than if someone else was sitting there IS laughable. I'm sorry.

100% agree with this post. It's always a pleasure to load up the B&M boards and find that there are new posts in the tipping thread. This is definitely my all time favorite thread.

In my room, we have an obscenely wealthy guy (OWG) who likes to play 2-5 NL. Now, OWG does tip but he isn't a particularly great tipper by 2-5 standards. He also tends to get a little bit sour whenever something rubs him the wrong way. Criticize his play, invoke IWTSTH, or a dozen other things can result in him picking up his chips and leaving the game or the casino altogether for the night.

However, he also is the biggest calling station I've ever seen. OWG will call a $100 post flop bet into a $30 pot with a gutshot draw or with bottom pair. Where I might be pushing $80 and $90 pots to players without OWG at the table, I find myself pushing $1000+ pots around hand after hand when OWG sits down.

Therefore, I'm always happy to see OWG at the table, even though he's not a great tipper, and even though he wins more pots than anyone else (seeing as he sees every hand down to the river). OWG adds real material value to the table. Maybe he's tipping $1 or $2 when he wins a $1000 pot, but the other players are tipping $5, $10, or more when they win huge pots. And where OWG goes, huge pots follow.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have a $1-2 NL player who is an extremely clueless dude (ECD). Never knows when the action is on him. Doesn't know how much the bet is. Has to be reminded 3 or 4 times per hand to post his blinds. Falls asleep at the table. Has inane conversations with the table, except nobody's ever listening. Frequently falls asleep at the table, his head tilted back towards the ceiling, eyes shut, drool peeling out of the corner of his mouth. And ECD never tips. His one redeeming quality is that he's a relatively tight player, and he doesn't see a lot of flops.

On the spectrum of players who aren't particularly big tippers, with ECD at one end scoring a '0' and OWG scoring a '10' I'd put Lester somewhere around 2.5.

With all due respect:

What bearing did you(the dealer) have on the fact that the pot was $1000?

Are you even taking into account how much money was potentially at risk for the player who happened to win it?

What about when I(the player) lose a big pot? Are you, can you, going to reach into your tip jar and hand me a buck or two? Of course you're not and I would never expect you to.

Then why, do a lot of dealers(not just yourself) have the notion that we should be tipping multiple dollars on hands won where the pot exceeds X$$$? Why? Did you have any control how the cards came out? Of course you don't. So why take any (extra) credit for it? Same goes when I lose a big pot while you're dealing; I never pass blame on to the dealer cause he/she has no control over it.

Look, I know you're there to make a living and you depend on those tips. I understand that. I don't stiff good dealers. Ever. Winning session or losing session, I don't stiff when I drag a pot. But, I want you to see where I(the player) am coming from:

Let's say you deal to me. Let's presume that the average size pot at this limit is $1000. I win the first hand and the $ that I profited from exceeded $2000. Now let's say that, in that same half hour I proceed to lose two HUGE pots? Or let's just say I proceed to give back what I profited on from the first hand? Still believe that I still should've tipped you more than $1 on that first hand?

Where, in my post which you quoted, did I ever say that I was entitled to a certain amount of a tip or that a player was obligated to give me a large tip for a big pot?

What I did say was that when I push larger than normal pots, I frequently get larger than normal tips. And OWG is a magnet for big pots. So even though he might not be a big tipper himself, my pay rate tends to go up when he's at the table.

And two of the reasons I don't reach into my tip jar and hand you a refund when you lose a big pot:

1. I don't have a "tip jar". I have a tip box. It's a black metal rectangular box, roughly the size of a loaf of bread.

2. My tip box is locked shut. There's a slot at the top that's just big enough for chips to fit inside it, but it's too tiny for me to reach my greedy little fingers into it. And I don't have a key to open it.

"He isn't a particularly great tipper."

What does that mean^? To me, that says that you have a problem with this player regarding his tipping. Maybe not a big problem , but there's definitely something there. If there wasn't, then you wouldn't be discussing him.

So yeah, I think you DO feel a self entitlement to bigger tips when the pots are bigger than normal. Yes, that IS what I derived from your post. But you can say whatever you wish if it makes you feel better.

Oh, one more thing:

Hmmm, so I guess you do factor that in after all, just forgot that you wrote this I guess, huh? And you're a dealer so I know that you would expect the same in return. If you say you don't, I can direct you to another post from yourself quoting exactly that.

Blah blah, blah.

Oh, I agree with you. I'm just stating that I'd rather have a tipping player at my table. You see, it's my income. Lester makes the point that he's a very tight, mostly non-winning player. So, I have to guess that he doesn't rely on his poker winnings to pay the bills. I, however, do rely on my tips for food money.

And a third is that you wouldn't refund a tip under any circumstances.

Angus, you've inferred an awful lot from me saying so very little. You must put some devastating soul reads on the other players when you're at the tables with reads like this.

When I said that OWG wasn't a particularly great tipper, I meant it in the context of the other 2-5 players who he sits with. I don't have a problem with him at all. I look forward to dealing his table because all of the other players open up their games when he's sitting. And I only brought him up as a not particularly big tipper whose mere presence benefits the dealers. This was specifically directed to Lester, who seems to think that his mere presence benefits the dealers because he mucks his cards in record time.

And then you quoted another post I wrote several days (weeks?) ago in which I discussed my own tipping habits when I play.

Really? I expect every player to tip me as well as I tip other dealers? I would estimate that I tip about $20/hr when I'm playing. Multiply that by 10 players at a table and that works out to $200/hr that you seem to think I expect when I'm working. I'd be happy to get half that!

Hit a nerve, did I?

Was I wrong?

You would actually "reverse tip"?

No.

Yes.

No.

So much for your brilliant soul reading skills...

So, I stated:

you wouldn't refund a tip under any circumstances.


You stated:

You would actually "reverse tip"? no

Actually, I have refunded a tip under a certain circumstance, and would do so again. Player won a small pot and tossed a chip in my direction. I picked it up, tapped the tray, said thank you, and dropped it into my box. Then he told me that he was actually just posting his blind for the next hand.

So the next few tips I received, I put aside, and when I had an amount equal to the amount that I had deposited into my box, I gave the player a refund. Similarly, if you gave me a $5 chip for a toke and then told me that you'd meant to give me a $1 chip, I'd refund you $4 in the same way.

You consider those cases a refund?

Those are the only examples that come to mind where I would consider handing money back to a player after it had been deposited into my tip box.

Or you could always find me at the tables when I'm playing and suck out on me. Does that count as a refund?

Considering that your first example is actually theft from the pot, you are being mighty generous. Guy wins a small pot and you think that a $5 (or bigger) chip tossed out, in a blind position, is yours? Did you make the guy post his blind again?

This is infrequent, but I'm sure plenty of dealers have had this happen. As I recall, it was a 1-2 game and the player tossed a $2 chip (we have those in my room). I made him post his blind again, and I gave him $2 out of the next two pots in which I received a $1 tip.

But I doubt if many would consider returning the $2 a refund. Returning what isn't yours isn't a refund.

Call it what you want. It's the only example I can think of where I'm taking money out of my tip box (figuratively) and giving it to a player.

Now that I've answered the question that you thought I was afraid to address (3 times) can we move on to a more interesting subject?