most of the christians I know are creationists... I don't know a lot of catholics though.

there is a whole industry of creationist material that profits off of promoting/teaching bad but commonsensical arguments against evolution or supporting creationism.

I can't decide if the people producing it are totally intellectually dishonest or just brainwashed people.

Creationists are to Christianity what ancient alien theorists are to "science"--the lunatic fringe.

I'm with you on your defense of science, but I think your views of religion could benefit from some nuance.

QFT.

What about Pascal's wager? Shouldn't all agnostics believe in god just to be on the safe side?

I think it's a combination. Most of the true creationists are legit ******ed, but there are some very intelligent people in the "ID camp," who I can't help but think they are being dishonest and only on the creationist side to gain more publicity (and money no doubt).

convo with friend before i read through rest of thread and decided to waste time commenting:

[5:26:32 PM] Josh: its amazing how completly ******ed some smart people can be
[5:27:01 PM] BadFormerFTPreg: who
[5:28:05 PM] Josh: havent read the last 2 pages of regs thread. but pretty much everyone who has posted in there since religion discussion began except for ren
[5:28:16 PM] Josh: and dickkemp
[5:28:20 PM] Josh: cuz he's prolly just drunk

this is also true in my experience. religious people look bad cuz the ones you hear about are the crazy extremists. but just cuz you believe in a higher power doesnt necessarily make you a clueless idiot.

though i did have the following converstation a few months ago with a catholic friend that i used to consider semi intelligent

him: well what i dont understand, if God doesnt want people to be gay, why did he make anal sex feel good?
everyone else at table:

I would love it if this were true (and this is mostly true in Europe), but a huge Christian population in the US is of the legit creationist variety, and they are very loud politically.

pascal's wager is a pretty laughable argument, riddled with logical fallacies. i won't bother to list them, just use google and you can easily find a dozen reasons why it is crap.

Religious belief does not deserve respect purely because it exists, just like no scientific theory deserves respect just because someone postulates it. A scientific theory EARNS respect through how well it matches up with the facts. Religion simply DEMANDS respect, and gets it on the basis of how powerful its supporters are.

There IS a conflict between science and religion and denying it doesnt make you seem any more intelligent in my eyes.

Also, I admit that I sometimes get "overly eager" in bashing religion on this forum, but this is the only forum I post where atheists/non-religious are a majority.

I'm used to posting in places where Christians (of whom at least half are creationists) outnumber me 4 to 1, so perhaps there's some pent-up frustration built up.

This discussion gets out the worst in me, so I should add that I welcome all sorts of weird and wonderful views on reality, and I try not to judge anyone. If you believe that your personality is immortal then that is fine with me. It is just the intolerance and lack of appreciation that the scientific world view is sometimes met with that gets my back up. The scientific method is the best one thing that humanity has ever come up with (AINEC), and it tilts me senseless that it doesnt get more respect and appreciation in our world today.

my strategy for religion discussions is to lol at all those involved from a safe distance.

I stopped trying to debat it a long time ago because I do not think evolution or creation really matters in the end. Neither one makes either person any better of a human. I just feel that it is your choice and right to believe either one and neither person should be a d*** about it.

+1 to this and As Sabr42 mentioned, Dawkins wrote very amazing books, would def recommend those that question evolution, he answers it.

Ren= best poster itt as mentioned before

I would recommend a book about creation but the author was too busy to write a book about it.

What I find interesting is an atheist often won’t make any attempt to validate the claims of seemingly rational people they disagree with. I read about scientific theories so why is it I never hear of an atheist making an honest attempt to seek out evidence of paranormal phenomena?

Once I became convinced that all was not what it appeared to be, I didn’t wait around for a disinterested scientific community to prove it, I looked for further evidence to reinforce and help define what I felt was likely true. I can’t in good conscience suggest a reckless and fool hearty approach to seeking out such phenomena as I don’t think it’s safe. Was it Einstein that said “I hope the universe is friendly?”

A good, legitimate spiritual medium is a reasonable place to start. If you’re going to state your learned opinion about the lack of such phenomena, perhaps it should in fact be a learned opinion. I do want to caution again on stomping around with a know-it-all attitude. Be smart and informed.

Magician James Randi used to offer one mirrion dollars for anyone who could demonstrate paranormal phenomena in an objective setting.

No psychics took him up on his offer.

A high school teacher of mine, when, unprompted, debating the disproof of creationism via evolution, said simply that yes, there are records of creatures before man but how do you know that god hasn't put these records here to give us a choice on what to believe.

Certainly an all powerful being could create any sort of illusion to test/polarize one's beliefs.

That being said, i do not believe in god. I wish i did. I wish with the death of every loved one i could believe that I would see them and talk to them again. I wish that for leading a good life i would have some sort of reward. I often wish that i would see and talk to a ghost which would destroy the foundation of my disbelief, but as of yet it has not happened.

In general i think people are happier by believing in (a) god, in believing that they have a happy ending, and in simply filling in a plausable answer to that mighty question "where do we come from", and it is because of this that a belief in god is so prevalent--coupled with the fear of murder if you weren't part of the herd. In other words, this is philosophical survival of the fittest; survival of the most pleasing. Over the past couple of thousand years in European society, the religions have evolved or been replaced by more pleasing ones. Paganism to Judaism. The jews had one book of books, but it wasn't happy enough so they wrote another one.

Why do i not just find a way to believe in god? Because i am happier wallowing from what i see as truth than deceiving myself with lies of bliss.

I take it back. Shannon makes a way better Storm than Poker J.

Most people heard of Upton Sinclair because of the book The Jungle, not to be confused with The Jungle Book! Sinclair also wrote another book called Mental Radio where he discusses his experience with telepathy, his wife's ability to remote view, and other strange phenomena.

I am not saying I believe him, only that he believes himself.

This doesn’t mean anything more to me than what I say means to you. Paranormal phenomena aren’t particularly noted for their love of the spot light. If everyone knew for certain what I believe to be true that would indeed change the entire dynamic of the world as we know it. If everybody were convinced beyond any doubt of a divine order and hierarchy, the world would change over night. Perhaps that’s not what they have in mind.

Something like this you need to get to on your own. If a divine hierarchy exists, just how relevant do you think man’s laws might be? Just because you are personally unaware, doesn’t make the awareness of others moot. Books and science are wonderful, but admit that it’s mans law on this little tiny planet in the middle of a vastness we can’t even comprehend. You are obviously very intelligent. Look around and see what you find. Stop basing your opinions on what other people think and what man can prove and challenges that not surprisingly go unanswered.

Ruh roh.

Can you give us the number to your psychic?

Also, I made this avatar for you. Feel free to use it.

Quiz time...

What is the only thing dumber then arguing about religion?

Oh thank you, very thoughtful.

Would you care to join the discussion on a more meaninful and intellectual level? I welcome your input.