Interesting discussion, not sure where i stand. Haven't ever bought HH just cause it's against the TOS, i actually didn't know a lot of regs were doing it

I've never bought hh's and probably never will. I think people put way too much emphasis on stats anyways.

So even though I know that I can buy hands from PTR, yet I choose not to because I know it's against FTP's TOS and I choose to respect that and not break the rules, then you don't have an unfair advantage over me when we're sitting at the table?

I fail to see how breaking the rules isn't gaining an unfair advantage over someone who decides not to break the rules.

Buying and using HH is against the rules. But so was datamining back in the day. I think 80% for regs is a scary number if accurate. I do not buy, nor do I condone such behavior.

Vizer, you're being way too cut and dry on an issue that has very, very unregulated rules. The TOS is equivalent to an inane law that no one follows because it isn't enforced/regulated, or practiced by the majority under that law/rule. In those situations, it is obviously the lawmaker's (FTP) fault and their responsibility to create a better infrastructure to support said rules. It's ludicrous and impracticable to expect the general public (online poker players) to adhere to unenforced stipulations when doing so inhibits their personal well-being (i.e. increased edge ==> more money). Informal self-regulation doesn't work, especially with the poker pool.

I think this sums up both arguments very well

Ghosting is also not allowed, and is against TOS. Sklansky gave a good argument in DUCY?

If you hire a coach, and he sweats you over and what ever, you are breaking the rules. Is that cheating as well?

I would think that would be much worst then datamining/buying hhs.

i guess from this quote we can assume all the lifefish folks are buying and, therefore probably sharing, hand histories? no matter who it is, never believe any poker player has any integrity until they prove otherwise.

im not a big winner by any means, but put me in the bottomset and vizer camp. never bought or shared any database of hh with anyone.

Some serious +1 in this. If you have 120k hands on someone, how do you have any clue if that's currently how he's playing? I'd think buying hand histories could be a disadvantage in this day and age of people constantly plugging leaks.

I keep my filters at the past 2 months and having over 10k hands on someone seems useless unless you are really trying to get 'raised river c-bet' to converge.

I'm not gonna report anyone but it doesn't mean I like the "buying hh's" culture that's emerging.

PTR is alot like downloading illegal music these days. Everyone is doing it and no one can enforce it.

Well done, this is really a fantastic explanation which i failed to write.

Absolute poker, cake poker encryption, townsend multi-accounting were all forms of self-regulation right? Yeah it's not exactly working all that great, but self-regulation is pretty much all we have.

I agree that it's FTP's fault, but how do we fix that? The easiest way would be if as a majority we took a stance again PTR, etc and petitioned FTP to do something about it. Or we could just accept it and move on and hope that something far worse like collusion doesn't become an accepted practice.

I talk to a lot of people beyond that. Life Fish is a very limited part of the community that I talk with, so your conclusions are somewhat unfounded (I worked as the Production Manager of CardRunners for three years and also own a reasonably large affiliate).

To be honest, I didn't know that many people were against it pre-thread (hence my being so open about it).

As for the integrity part, if you do some digging you can see I've proven my own within the community many times, this is simply an issue I didn't see as something nefarious (although fwiw, I'm revisiting this again given that I quite genuinely didn't expect so many people to take issue with it and consider my reputation a lot more important then edge gained).

Vizer, what do you think of ghosting or sweating? It is against TOS. A coach telling his student on what to do, giving the players playing against that player a huge disadvantage. They think they are playing against him, but against a player twice as superior. This falls into the same category as hh buying. But if we had to rate which one is worst, it would easily be this imo.

What is your stand on that? I assume you would also be against this and consider it as cheating if you are against datamining/hh buying.

He had a read...1/2 rush.

Am I the only one that feels like its a huge size jump from 1/2 rush to 2/4 rush skill wise?

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP2: $288.90
Hero (CO): $602.00
BTN: $301.00
SB: $177.45
BB: $658.50
UTG: $272.50
UTG+1: $285.45
UTG+2: $244.15
MP1: $198.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with 9 6
5 folds, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, SB calls $3, BB raises to $16, Hero calls $12, SB calls $12

Flop: ($48.00) 8 5 3 (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $18, Hero raises to $49, SB folds, BB calls $31

Turn: ($146.00) 7 (2 players)
BB requests TIME, BB bets $35, Hero raises to $142, BB calls $107

River: ($430.00) 2 (2 players)
BB bets $80, Hero raises to $395 all in, BB requests TIME, BB calls $315

Final Pot: $1220.00
Hero shows 9 6 (a straight, Nine high)
BB mucks K A
Hero wins $1217.00
(Rake: $3.00)

ummm, im not trying to attack you personally, but it doesnt matter about all the people you know. you said you didnt know anyone not using it. i assume you know all the lifefish guys, so therefore, all the lifefish guys must be buying hhs based on your words and your connections. and one can only assume they are also sharing what they buy with their friends. similar to the townsend/hastings/south vs isildur1 deal that got the community riled up and townsend a punishment from ftp.

only reason i bring up the lifefish guys is because they are your friends, most post in/follow these forums, and they are the guys the rest of us not in the group play everyday.

new friend, imho

or just be like, hi how much have you made in the last few months?

i think it'd be ok at this point to bash on him back, if he's being super annoying like that imho ._.

don't really see why lifefish is being brought up here at all. I dont buy/share hhs myself but i dont have a problem with others doing so. I just dont see the added value to buying hhs when you have a big enough sample on most players after 1 hour

I haven't gone around asking everybody I know if they were using datamined hands, if that was the case then this assumption could be drawn (however that would also be somewhat exhausting and crazy on my behalf if I did just that).

My point was that I can't list anybody who doesn't use them (from the knowledge I have) however I can list a lot of people who are and I've had a lot of people talk about them with me over the years (and especially so post Brian Hastings scandal).

oh my gawd the games are good today

im with joopjan on this one

Any person who has a problem with people datamining/buying hhs, is welcome to respond to this. Still waiting.

AB/UB and cake are just worse forms of FTP/stars, Townsend's case is an example of self de-regulation because not only did he ignore the rules in place, but took specific measures to maximally exploit the lackluster enforcement of the TOS.

I find the TOS to be similar to jaywalking; it is technically illegal, but is only enforced less than 1% of the time, so as long as the benefits of getting from A to B faster outweigh the very rare occasion I am caught, me and the rest of society will continue to do so. I'd say using PTR is like jaywalking (majority of society does it), and what Townsend did was like assaulting another pedestrian (more serious offense, much rarer, etc.)

i've actually not bought one hand on FTP.
did buy stars a while ago when I wanted to try it out and had like 0 hands played

The same thing imo, just different sites.