Villain is *Ima*ji*ka*, a reg most of you will know. His stats in my db are 15/8/2. He is pretty much a rakebackwhore. I have noticed from other hands that he doesnt give my bets and raises much credit, and has a fairly cynical attitude overall. That said, he seems mostly tight and fairly straightforward, and I am not terribly keen on stacking off 200bb here.

I really felt he had exactly AA here on the river. Since I have the Kh he cant be triple barreling with AhKh. Not sure if he is capable of 3barreling either. Does JJ play like this on that board? Very doubtful imo. QQ? Maybe, but it seems overly aggressive. AA/KK, yes definitely. Of course he COULD have decided that I was opening too wide and 3b me with a pocket pair that hit a set or something as well. Is my reasoning sound? If you think that I must call river if I call turn, I would like you to explain why.

So I guess what I want to know is: huge vagina or did I just dodge bullets baby?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($313.80)
Button ($400)
SB ($201)
BB ($98)
UTG ($228.55)
MP1 ($200)
MP2 ($609.20)
Hero (MP3) ($722.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, K
3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, Button raises to $28, 2 folds, Hero calls $20

Flop: ($59) 8, 6, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $38, Hero calls $38

Turn: ($135) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $100, Hero calls $100

River: ($335) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $234 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $335 | Rake: $3

why not 4bet and get it in preflop?

Because I am 200bb deep against a nitty reg? I am pretty sure he will toss AK/JJ and most likely QQ as well.

This villain is very unlikely to have a set here so it's one of the premium pairs. Smells like AA

I agree with the others; it seems like you are beat here. Your line is very passive - c/c, c/c, chk on river, but I still think him three-barreling here is such a small part of his range that you are likely beat. His range looks very polarized, either AA/set (90%) or a 3 barrel bluff (10%). I don't see how you can stack off here on the river that deep.

Am I the only one who absolutely under no circumstances ever calls a 3bet? 200bb deep, you could 4bet fold if he shoves and you know he's got AA, but if you have some history I wouldn't put AK or QQ past him. His actions scream AA, but 88/99 isn't completely out of the question, depending on his 3bet habits.

If you don't want a big drop in your won $ w/o SD, you must call all day long imo.

so you are set-mining with KK?

You mean in this particular spot? I dont see why not?
Yeah I called preflop, flop and turn hoping to spike my two-outer but no dice, so it was an easy fold on the river. Why, you dont like my line?

If that is the case, the turn call is pretty spewy.

Not sure if you are re-leveling, but I was being sarcastic. I dont want to derail the thread so I will explain why I didnt 4bet preflop.

If I 4bet I feel this particular villain will fold all the hands in his range that I beat, and continue with the one hand I dont. Maybe not always, but alot of the time. And that would be bad. What hands do you normally call 4bets from tags with 200bb deep?

If I instead just call his 3bet, I keep his range wider. I give him a chance to keep giving me money with hands like JJ, QQ and AK. And that is good.

i don't mind the fold and really don't see the logic behind having to call once you called the turn, your analysis seems sound and I think hes doing this with worse or a bluff rarely enough to make this a painful fold

really this is read dependent though if you know he can be spewy then i think it becomes a call

ummm let see, you didn't 4 bet pre because you wanted to get value from JJ, QQ -> so call please.

Or make it easy for yourself and just 4 bet pre - especially if btn's 3 bet range is wide.

Look, I did post this hand to get feedback, I really did. And I can see opinion is divided on what to do on the river, which is to be expected. But I must say 4betting pre if we think villain only will continue with AA is pretty damn ******ed. "Make it easy on myself" wtf.

IF you think villain will spazz out with AK/QQ when I 4b, then that is fine, just say so. But 4betting because I want to end the hand or some stupid bull**** like that is fundamentally flawed thinking.

4-betting preflop is much better.

As played, fold, he next-to-never has worse here. This is AA or some hand that turned into a set wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more often than it can ever be QQ.

Given our preflop action:

The question ends up being is there a better way to play the hand to max value when we're ahead and potentially get to SD cheaper when we're not?

CRAI on turn.

Just to make sure we are on the same page here:
You are 4-betting because you are looking to get all the monies in the middle, right?

With those stats he's normally gonna fold everything except AA, KK and possibly QQ to a 4bet. Of course this is dependent on Hero's image but I still can't see him continuing with anything else. He's also not gonna have a set here as he's calling with his pairs preflop for set value.

I think the line is fine as we're normally expecting villain to check somewhere along the line with QQ, JJ. Can't see him going for 3 streets of value 200BB deep with them

I'm looking to get some money in the middle right now, as there is nothing about Villain's button 3-bet at this moment that guarantees that he has AA. It is also silly to simply automatically assume that 4-betting will make Villain fold QQ/JJ/AK AND it's even sillier to automatically discount 4-betting because we did assume so.

Well I like a 4 bet for a few reasons:
1) If he has AA you find out immediately and cut your losses (he might get tricky, but after a 4 bet he's more likely to shove than get cute)
2) If he has a pair 66-JJ, you give him the opportunity to make a mistake and set mine with incorrect odds
3) If he has QQ, AK he might spazz out (like you said)
I think by 4 betting here you're giving V an opportunity to make a mistake - which is what we want!

Also I guess I said "make it easy" because more often than not I can't find a fold myself in these situations which costs me lots of BB's.

I know this villain and this deep if Ren 4bet I'm 99.99999% sure he'd fold QQ or less instantly. He wouldn't even call and see a flop; he's simply **** himself that Ren has KK+ and fold. Calling is 100% the correct play here IMHO even though its a very uncomfortable play to be making. As for post-flop? Jesus, it's tough! I think the flop and turn calls are profitable as he'll still bet less and maybe even air. I think you have to fold the river though? This villain's perception of Ren is probably similar to mines. AA is the very, very, very worst hand I'd shove on this river against Ren and I'm betting Imji-fanny is the same. It'll be a cold day in hell before he's shoving QQ or air on this river IMHO. I think you made the best of an extremely sh*tty situation.

The boot,

1) and 3) are incompatible. On the one hand you say if he has AA we'll find out (presumably because he'll re-raise and we'll fold) and on the other you want/expect him to "spazz out with QQ/AK" which, I assumes, means he re-raises or pushes and the only way we can take advantage of that is to call which then puts us at the mercy of AA when he has it. As for 2) it's simply not happening IMHO unless the 4b was a super gay size.

Which perhaps isn't such a bad idea. Could this be a spot to make a min-4b to take control of the hand again. Villain may very well call that with a number of lesser hands and will play super-straight up on the flop. I'm thinking min-4b and a bet-fold on the flop if there is enough room to make that play (can't be hooped to calculate stacks, etc)

"I know this villain and this deep if Ren 4bet I'm 99.99999% sure he'd fold QQ or less instantly."


Sounds like 4-betting your entire range should be profitable here then until he figures it out.

It probably would be tbh, however, I doubt he's 3-betting light in the first place. QQ+AK+ only IMHO.