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Live 1/3NL: call or shove? or fold? Live 1/3NL: call or shove? or fold?

05-29-2008 , 06:17 PM
Two hands.

My image is overall a pretty loose player who raises a lot in position and cbets a bit, although I'm not known to play trash or garbage.

Villain in 1st hand is one of the guys who runs the game, so I figure he should be playing pretty tight since he doesn't want to a) knock out his own players and b) risk his potential profit. Normally, however, villain plays very loose-passive (as is typical of many live players), only betting when he has a hand or a complete bluff, and almost very rarely 2-3 barrels, but will call down with a lot of hands.

Hand 1: effective stacks of about 180.
I raise Q J in MP to 15, get an LP caller and villain in the blinds.

Flop 3way (45): Q 9 8
Villain checks. I bet 35. LP folds. Villain calls.

Turn HU (115): T
Villain checks. I check.
I checked here because I was thinking villain would fold almost all 1pair hands and I wanted to get value from them on the river. Plus it adds an element of deception to my hand. But, in hindsight, betting is probably best as villain is a calling station.

River (HU) (115): 3
Villain bets 50. I shove for about 80 more (??)
Is the shove here the best play or is calling better?

Shortstack villain in hand 2 is a very tight player who rarely raises preflop (I would think he limps most AK/JJ hands and only raises QQ+, although I'm sure he can mix it up too), and is a very ABC'ish player postflop as well. Villain #2 is a very loose player preflop, but pretty ABC'ish postflop, doesn't get out of line very often and usually plays very calling station-ish if anything. He doesn't mess around in pots w/ me as we generally give each other a fair amount of respect.

Hand 2: effective stacks of about 140 for short stack, and 550 for big stack.
There's a straddle to 7. Villain #2 calls. SS Villain raises to 22 in the SB. I have A K in the BB and decide to flat. Villain #2 calls also.

Flop 3way (70): 2 3 5
SS Villain shoves for about 120. I call (??).
Should I call here or fold? I figured my diamonds should be good plus I have a gutter and overcard(s) against QQ/KK. Only thing against SS Villain that I'm completely crushed by is AAx.
05-29-2008 , 07:15 PM
hand #1. i like how you played the hand all the way through. there is no reason not to shove this river, you have the second nuts, you will get called by worse (like 20 percent of the time) more often than you are up against KJ (like 5 percent of the time)
hand #2. given pot odds and you odds of outdrawing his range on the flop with any 4, most probably any diamond, and probably even A or K, this is a call. even if he has pocket kings, you have to call. literally the only hand where this is a bad call against shortstacked villian is when he has 2 aces AND one of them is a diamond. remember, if he has pocket aces without diamond, this is the right call. overall, you're probably about even money versus his range, and given the 70 or so already in the pot, this is definite call against short stack. lastly, i'm really unsure here of which is better, a call or shove to drive out the deep stacked villian 2.
05-29-2008 , 07:34 PM
Hand 1: depends on how bad villain is; if he sucks, go ahead and shove - though I see you chopping here a bunch

Hand 2: Snap call.
He's made, so he's probably TT+, and you are a mathematical favorite against TT,JJ,QQ, and you don't even look that bad against KK - discount AA, KK a little because you have them, and throw in the random AK, AQ, 77-99, and this is a Filmuth value call.
05-29-2008 , 07:43 PM
christian peters we agree on hand 2 hero is not folding flop, but should hero just call or shove against villian 2 and why? i'm torn. on the one hand i want to raise and get villian 2 out of the pot, but on the other if villian 2 has the nut flush draw then i have massively and unnecessary screwed myself. villian 2, with his 2 calls preflop, could also very easily have small pocket pair, and then if he has a set we screwed ourselves again. if we decide to call, what if villian 2 shoves over us? then do we call (i think we do, though again we're screwed against set or nut flush draw)
edit: one thing i realized is we aren't that screwed against nut flush draw if villian doesn't have Ak or a pair to go along with the ace of diamonds.
i'd really appreciate it if somebody would evaluate the merits of calling on flop versus raising or shoving.
05-29-2008 , 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by popoko42
christian peters we agree on hand 2 hero is not folding flop, but should hero just call or shove against villian 2 and why? i'm torn.
I'm probably raising, and I might just shove it. I want two cards for free, and I really don't feel like folding if I call and Villain 2 comes over the top. Plus, the pot is already massive, and we have a ton of equity, so I'd like to protect that equity by getting it HU, and possibly cleaning up some outs.

      
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