Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer
SB ($240)
Hero ($218)
UTG ($367)
UTG+1 ($110)
UTG+2 ($40)
MP1 ($34)
CO ($207)
BTN ($200)

Dealt to Hero Q A

fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $7, BTN calls $7, SB raises to $26, Hero raises to $56, CO calls $49, fold, fold

FLOP ($145) K K 8

Hero?

BU and SB are both TAG fishes. the original raiser is a 23/8

SB resteals and sqzes a ton. BU 3bets light; he never has a good hand there. cold 4betting is definitely profitable here.

i think there r a lot of unpaired junk hands in COs range. should i just shove the flop to collect the dead money having an SPR of 1?

meh if he's of the fishy bad player to put a small bet in on this flop with most of his range then i prefer c/rai to just a shove. If he's not that type of "passive" then ur really just left with shove or c/f.

I just don't know how much respect ur going to get with shoving when ur game appears to be so aggressive anyway. I'd be snapping most of your shoves here.

none of what i have said really helps me make a decision but there u go.

Let's say he flats AJ+, KQ, 99+ and your shove is basically potsized. Let's aslo assume that he'll call with any K, AA, and fold anything else. If that's the case there's 6xAK+6xKQ+3xAA+1xKK=16 combos that will call you (and you're basically dead against those) and 6x99+6xTT+6xJJ+3xQQ+12xAJ=33 combos that'll fold. So shoving would easily be the best play there.

I've got no idea how accurate my range is, cause I got trouble putting a 23/8 on a range here and I also got no idea what he's gonna do with QQ or JJ in this spot. But even if we take out AJ, 99 and KQ, it's still 15 combos we beat vs 10 that beat us. Then again we don't really win anything if we fold out AJ... I'm too tired to figure it out, but I can't really see how we could not shove here.

The more I think about it the more my range seem ridiculously wide. Chances of him being on like QQ+, AK are pretty good when he flats our 4 bet I guess. Which then would clearly indicate a c/f.

A lot or rambling here and not really anything useful.. Sorry bout that. One last thing though: If he's passive, we could maybe check it to him, fold if he bets, and shove any turn below a T if he doesn't to get him off TT-QQ.


Cliffnotes: Got no idea what his range could be-> no idea what to do...

****, i must be the fish cause in this spot i fold this pf.

c/f? lol. Pretty sure all of the CO's cold 4bet calling range has you crushed.

It's pretty debatable imo. On the plus side, we have good card removal. The negative is that, although the SB frequently squeezes, in this particular case he's reraising a nits open out of position. That probably narrows his range quite a bit, unless he's super spewy.

Another fish as i fold this too

shove. his cold 4-bet calling range is almost always QQ-JJ and rarely AK. But card removal makes 4 combos of AK (probably fewer given that SB squeezed with something and BTN called). and 3 + 4 = 7 combos of QQ and 3 combos of AA (probably fewer). (if he is the slow playing types).

Also his passiveness I think he folds QQ-JJ on a K paired flop if you shove.

so about 50-50 or better for us and i think shove is good.

i'm very curious to see the results

What is this thread?! This is like the easiest c/f in the world (you're drawing to heart heart and OCCASIONALLY Ace) and your read of CO having a lot of unpaired junk is completely unjustified by the info given here.

the results are really interesting: i shoved and he called with 89s. if his range is that wide, my shove is certainly +EV, because there are so many suited connectors and small pocket pairs in his range that totally missed the flop.

i was really supprised for him coming up with such a crap hand, but w/e.

my cold 4bet seems a bit naive given that he called it wit 89s, but i think in general the players fold often enough to make the 4bet profitable. i like cold 4betting once in a while when i think the players fold often enough to make the move +EV.

I think fold to 3bet stat could be really useful here, cause villain is loose-passive pf and probably calls to many raises with his stats, so it would be interesting to see how often he continues facing a 3bet. That coul help defining a range for him.

line against a tighter player with half a brain on flop?

lol bro, you realize an Ace and a Queen beats an 8 and a 9, right?

of course, but my intention wasnt 4betting for value. i thought they fold so often that i make a profit. thats not the case when he calls my 4bet w/ 89s.

But like you said, if you're shoving in the dark, more often than not his range of ****ty hands have missed and you'll take down an even bigger pot than before. Still, I stand by what I said before. His preflop call is completely out of character for his stats. I would expect his cold call range to be like JJ-AA, AK here.

@ATC: what makes you think he cold call with JJ, QQ to get it in on any flop.

is it only because there are two Kings on this flop and we will be profitable shoving Kxy ?

I don't think I ever said this. But whether I expect him to call or fold JJ-QQ on this flop, it doesn't even matter since they constitute less than half his range. The "bigger half" is AK, KK-AA which is obviously never folding, meaning that this would be a -EV shove even if Villain folded JJ-QQ every single time (assuming no issues of weighting and that his preflop range is strictly JJ-AA, AK).