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3/6:  Straight on 3-flush river 3/6:  Straight on 3-flush river

03-17-2008 , 06:16 PM
Villain is running 31/11/2 over about 100 hands. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Poker Stars $3/$6 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $573.00
UTG+1: $616.10
UTG+2: $642.45
MP1: $111.00
MP2: $760.65
Hero (CO): $749.40
BTN: $618.30
SB: $488.45
BB: $543.55

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with J A
5 folds, Hero raises to $18, 1 fold, SB calls $15, 1 fold

Flop: ($42.00) K Q 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($42.00) T (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $38, SB calls $38

River: ($118.00) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $66, Hero raises to $172, SB raises to $432.45 all in, Hero folds
03-17-2008 , 06:19 PM
Looks ok.
03-17-2008 , 06:44 PM
Why raise the river when you know you have to fold to a shove?
03-17-2008 , 06:44 PM
thats a pretty dumb statement
03-17-2008 , 06:45 PM
for value??
03-17-2008 , 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB182
Why raise the river when you know you have to fold to a shove?
because people don't 3bet bluff here?
03-17-2008 , 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soah
for value??
But what hands (regarding villain's line) do we excpect to call our raise here, or: from which hands do we think we could get value here?
If he is bluffing the scare card on the river he is obviously not calling the river raise anyway and a set would've most probably c/r turn or donked flop or turn.

Any explanation appreciated...
03-18-2008 , 01:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB182
But what hands (regarding villain's line) do we excpect to call our raise here, or: from which hands do we think we could get value here?
If he is bluffing the scare card on the river he is obviously not calling the river raise anyway and a set would've most probably c/r turn or donked flop or turn.

Any explanation appreciated...
Just because you or I wouldn't call a raise with a worse hand doesn't mean our Villain won't call with worse. It's a value raise because I only lose to a flush, his range is much wider (I think) than flushes, and I will approximately never get reraised by a worse hand.

How many times have we bet or raised or shoved the river only to get called by 3rd pair or whatever? In this case, I think he could call with any two pair (most likely K8,Q8,T8), a few one pair hands, J9, or an unlikely set (but people love to slowplay those, so you never know).

Also, since I love to do the river "bet/fold ... no wait, I mean bet/call" last minute change with medium hands when I actually do get raised, I assume plenty of other players do this as well.
03-18-2008 , 02:05 AM
not raising this river is missing a lot of value
03-18-2008 , 04:39 AM
Yea i like this play a lot. I like the flop check although I dont think a cbet is terrible either.
03-18-2008 , 06:14 AM
I dont like ur river raise at all
03-18-2008 , 06:20 AM
River raise is probably slightly -EV, and if you don't have a bad image or any history (or any reason to build any), I wouldn't do it. Also, I cbet this flop almost always.
03-18-2008 , 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proofrock
Just because you or I wouldn't call a raise with a worse hand doesn't mean our Villain won't call with worse. It's a value raise because I only lose to a flush, his range is much wider (I think) than flushes, and I will approximately never get reraised by a worse hand.

How many times have we bet or raised or shoved the river only to get called by 3rd pair or whatever? In this case, I think he could call with any two pair (most likely K8,Q8,T8), a few one pair hands, J9, or an unlikely set (but people love to slowplay those, so you never know).

Also, since I love to do the river "bet/fold ... no wait, I mean bet/call" last minute change with medium hands when I actually do get raised, I assume plenty of other players do this as well.
Hey proofrock,

thanks for explaining your thought process here, I agree that raising here does make sense if you think that he might bet/call here with anything else except flushes.
IMO though, his line here looks/is very polarized to either flush or air and therefore I did not really see too much value in raising the river for obvious reasons. If your read suggests though that he might take this line with an awkardly bad played set or some weird 2 pair then I'm fine with it...

      
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