100 NL QQ facing a 4-bet - Small Stakes Full Ring Games

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100 NL QQ facing a 4-bet

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08-05-2008 , 04:46 PM

Hollywade

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,551

No history with opponent

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $97.10
Hero (SB): $134.40
BB: $47.05
UTG: $113.20
UTG+1: $47.30
UTG+2: $20
MP1: $104.55
MP2: $51.90
CO: $101.50

Pre-Flop: Q

dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $14, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $51.90 and is All-In

Thoughts? How do you tend to respond in this situation when you don't have any reliable stats or reads?

08-05-2008 , 04:55 PM

WantToLearn

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,082

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywade

How do you tend to respond in this situation when you don't have any reliable stats or reads?

try to put them on ranges anyway. And be aware of how often you have to be good.

Let´s say it´s AA-JJ, AK, AQs.

Now stove this and play around with different likelihoods for each hand. For instance, I don´t think this is AQs more than 10% they get dealt this hand. JJ not more than 33%. AK 50% of the time they get AK. We now have 38.4% equity, while we need 37.5% (assuming FT has the same rake structure as Stars, which I don´t know).

08-05-2008 , 05:11 PM

KakiTee

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,666

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywade

How do you tend to respond in this situation when you don't have any reliable stats or reads?

try calling every single time.

08-05-2008 , 05:13 PM

lajoe

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 350

after the 3bet, you cant fold, especially for a halfstack

08-05-2008 , 05:14 PM

Baja15

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,220

Quote:

Originally Posted by KakiTee

try calling every single time.

MP2: $51.90.

3 bet/folding with QQ and these effective stack sizes would be very very bad

08-05-2008 , 05:15 PM

Chargers In 08

banned

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,590

He has half of a stack, we have no read, we have Queens, we're arrr in.

08-05-2008 , 05:48 PM

Hollywade

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,551

Quote:

Originally Posted by WantToLearn

try to put them on ranges anyway. And be aware of how often you have to be good.

Let´s say it´s AA-JJ, AK, AQs.

This is very close to the range I put him on, except I left out AQs.

08-05-2008 , 05:50 PM

Hollywade

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,551

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chargers In 08

He has half of a stack, we have no read, we have Queens, we're arrr in.

Even with half a stack, I can't imagine making this play with anything less than JJ. Am I wrong, or am I missing the point?

08-05-2008 , 05:59 PM

Hollywade

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,551

I don't use PokerStove that much, but this is what I came up with.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

59,930,640 games 0.281 secs 213,276,298 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.366% 45.79% 01.58% 27440794 945878.00 { QhQs }
Hand 1: 52.634% 51.06% 01.58% 30598090 945878.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

08-05-2008 , 06:02 PM

#10

Rays champs in 08

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,676

i think his shoving range is alot wider then u are giving him credit for this is an ista call

08-05-2008 , 06:08 PM

#11

Sodom

adept

Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,034

I think it's an pretty easy call because of his stack size. You get decent odds.

One similar hand - similar in betting pattern and presumed big hands - I watched at my table some days ago was played like this. One 2+2 regular raised utg, mp re-raised, 2+2 3bet, mp tanked for a long time and shoved all in for the last 60BB or so; 2+2 called. Effective stacks for the players was 100BB. 2+2 had AK and imo when the stack size are big like this and the opponent shove in full ring 100NL, you should muck AK (Normally, even QQ should be mucked) when the price to call is very high. Opponent had him crushed with KK.

08-05-2008 , 06:10 PM

#12

Baja15

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,220

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywade

That range is too narrow for a random half stacker and even against that range it's an easy call.

08-05-2008 , 08:03 PM

#13

Hollywade

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,551

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baja15

That range is too narrow for a random half stacker and even against that range it's an easy call.

Really? People actually 4-bet with worse hands in full ring games. Apparently I am giving my opponents way too much credit.

08-05-2008 , 08:05 PM

#14

loldonkaments1

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 230

Turbo call.

08-05-2008 , 08:10 PM

#15

Baja15

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,220

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywade

Really? People actually 4-bet with worse hands in full ring games. Apparently I am giving my opponents way too much credit.

Random half stacks do yeah.

08-05-2008 , 08:49 PM

#16

shifty oriental

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 559

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywade

Really? People actually 4-bet with worse hands in full ring games. Apparently I am giving my opponents way too much credit.

You'd be surprised the number of times you see 88-TT (or worse here). I think the thought process is "I've got a pocket pair, I'm totally the favorite here if he just has AK!"

08-05-2008 , 09:15 PM

#17

2OutsNoProb

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15,991

He's a half stack, he can have JJ, AQs/AKo/AKs/random TT or worse pretty often here. You are getting reasonable odds to call, and it's pretty weak to muck QQ here for this price to a short stack. Call, live with result.

08-05-2008 , 09:21 PM

#18

marimba man

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 504

Thread is a level or what?

08-05-2008 , 10:18 PM

#19

Chargers In 08

banned

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywade

Even with half a stack, I can't imagine making this play with anything less than JJ. Am I wrong, or am I missing the point?

This is from last night so I think you're wrong. I had around no read...something like 10 hands with him. I just don't respect these half stacked unknowns.

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $100.60
BB: $109.40
UTG: $40.65
UTG+1: $97.00
Hero (MP1): $160.90
MP2: $170.15
CO: $84.00
BTN: $25.55

Pre Flop: Hero is MP1 with K

UTG raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $11, 5 folds, UTG raises to $40.65 all in, Hero calls $29.65

Flop: ($82.80) 9

(2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($82.80) Q

(2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($82.80) K

(2 players - 1 is all in)

Spoiler:

08-06-2008 , 10:03 AM

#20

WantToLearn

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,082

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodom

One similar hand - similar in betting pattern and presumed big hands - I watched at my table some days ago was played like this. One 2+2 regular raised utg, mp re-raised, 2+2 3bet, mp tanked for a long time and shoved all in for the last 60BB or so; 2+2 called. Effective stacks for the players was 100BB. 2+2 had AK and imo when the stack size are big like this and the opponent shove in full ring 100NL, you should muck AK (Normally, even QQ should be mucked) when the price to call is very high. Opponent had him crushed with KK.

AK is not "crushed" by KK, as AK has 30% equity and the final call had been correct or close to it even if the ai bettor had turned his KK face up.

The inital 3bet w/ AK (2+2´ers UTG raise gets reraised by 2+2´er in MP) might be debatable though.

08-06-2008 , 01:32 PM

#21

Sodom

adept

Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,034

Quote:

Originally Posted by WantToLearn

AK is not "crushed" by KK, as AK has 30% equity and the final call had been correct or close to it even if the ai bettor had turned his KK face up.

Not really but the problem is actually the 4bet.

Why some people want to play deep stack and then urge to push it in preflop anyway is not very logical to me. They should benefit more if they started to short stack when there post flop skills obv are bad.

08-06-2008 , 01:35 PM

#22

BigBiceps

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,205

Quote:

Originally Posted by marimba man

Thread is a level or what?

This entire forum is a level.

08-06-2008 , 01:56 PM

#23

miaowmiaowchowface

adept

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 796

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBiceps

This entire forum is a level.

it all fits...

08-06-2008 , 02:03 PM

#24

TS Clark

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 284

Against a guy you have no reads on who only has a half-stack (and considering the money you've already put in), you've got to send it in without too much thought.

08-06-2008 , 02:06 PM

#25

WantToLearn

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,082

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBiceps

This entire forum is a level.

This entire forum is a forum full of people who don´t play NL200 and above.

Maybe just accept the recreational player as a legitimate life form and all is well.

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