played today,friend hit tee shot on par 3 just right of green which had a slope down to the right into wooded area marked with yellow stakes. hit provisional to center of green

walking up we saw his ball was a few feet in the hazard requiring a drop and was slightly infront of the line of where the provisional ball was (if you were a parallel line from provisional to original ball)

ruling? options?

i told him he must play his original ball since it was found, he begged to differ

we were just playing for a small amount of $$ and he was getting really heated, i ended up saying do what you want because didnt want to bicker over couple bucks

Two basic principles:

You can't play a provisional for a ball in a water hazard. I don't know what else yellow stakes mean, even though you say they are demarking a wooded area.

When you play a provisional you don't get to choose. You played it for an exigency that came to pass or didn't.

eta: I like the way you handled it. Basically defuse the situation because you don't know the rule and it isn't that important-- and then try to learn the rule. Maybe it cost you a few bucks, but you'll be better prepared going forward.

First off - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/93...thread-806241/

Yes, as played he must proceed with the found ball.

However, it appears neither one of you know the rules since you don't hit a provisional ball for a shot possibly entering a hazard. You proceed with the rules of (in this case) a regular water hazard.

Also, since you could plainly see the ball was a few feet inside the margin of the hazard from a ways away, I would tend to think it would have been playable from there. Otherwise, there would have been no way to know that was in fact his ball.

Unfortunately, these things happen all too often in a money match where nobody knows the rules.

BO

Maybe I'm confused or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I think he played 3 off the tee. Period.

We both know that's not a provisional though, as OP stated. Perhaps we'll get a clearer picture eventually.

BO

I was in this situation as a junior oh so many years ago. I hit a ball, possibly in hazard. I put another ball in play as a provisional. When I couldn't find my original ball, I wanted to proceed with the provisional. My competitor said, "You can't hit a provisional, etc." The rules official (read PE teacher) agreed and said I may play from the original spot or, blah, blah, blah, in accordance with a ball in the hazard.

The SAD thing is that I still don't know the rule, and I'm embarrassed that as a kid I never convinced myself of the correct play.

It seems to me, if the ball I put in play wasn't a provisional (and we are agreed on this), then what was it? Why wasn't it me electing to play from the original spot after the penalty whether or not I knew what I was doing?

He has to play his first ball. Couldn't he just take a standard water/lateral hazard drop if the ball was indeed unplayable???

ok he hit a "provisional" because we didnt know 1st-the ball would be 5 feet just out of a playable position and would need to be played as "unplayable" and 2nd- we had no clue it was marked as a hazard (and it was 100% yellow and it was bushes/woods ****)

so approach my question as you hit ur tee shot to the right with no knowledge of it being a hazard, just assuming you may not find the ball. walking up to the green we saw it was marked yellow hazard and we looked for his ball and found it several feet in a bush just inside the stakes.

does that clear things up at all, or still same idea?

Couple of things that come up often and are widely misunderstood:
1) if you play a provisional, you must make it clear before hitting it.
"I'm going to hit another" is not sufficient. State that you are playing a provisional, and identify the ball ("this one is a 4, the first was a 3")

2) If you hit a ball, and it may be in a hazard, or it may be lost or o.b., you can hit a provisional incase it's lost or o.b.
Many players believe wrongly that if a ball may be in a hazard, you cannot hit a provisional.
But if no one saw it go in the hazard, and it could reasonably be lost outside the hazard (leaves, rough, etc.), then you may hit a provisional.
Realize that doing so pretty much negates any arguement that it is in the hazard if the ball is not found.

In your case, Shemp, if you were clear that you were hitting a provisional for a lost ball, and there were reasonable places the ball could be other than the hazard, then you were given a bad ruling.
If, around the hazard, there is nothing but fairway height grass, or rough so short and thin that a ball couldn't reasonably be lost in it, then the evidence suggests that it went into the hazard, and the provisional ball cannot be used.

One other thing I've seen misunderstood at times-
when you play a provisional, some people think you must declare whether it's a provisional for being lost, or a provisional for being o.b.
So, they think if you say, "I'm hitting a provisional for a lost ball", and then it is found o.b., then the provisional is not in play. This is incorrect.
A provisional ball is for both/either situation.

Sounds like it should've been marked red (lateral) if at all.
A provisional cannot be played for a ball that may be unplayable.

If you had no clue the area was marked as hazard, it is perfectly understandable to hit a provisional. But when the original ball is found in the hazard, the provisional ball is now out of play. The ball is not lost or o.b.

This is what gets me. I just cannot understand why there would be yellow stakes parallel to the line of a hole not marking a body of water. Especially if the guys playing had no expectation of a hazard there. Almost seems like they had to be marking ground under repair or something else instead.

If you knew the area to be marked with Yellow stakes (which I assume you knew this as you stated this off of the tee?!), then a Provisional ball does not make sense here.

Either case, the original ball was found and must be played in the rules of hazard. He does not have the option to play the second ball that he played. If he chooses to do so, he may go back to the tee to play a shot shooting 3 but that would be one of his options because the ball is in the hazard.

The original ball was found and must be played in the rules of hazard. He does not have the option to play the second ball that he played. If he chooses to do so, he may go back to the tee to play a shot shooting 3 but it must be a DIFFERENT swing than the second swing that he/she has already took. That is one of his options in the hazard. Or he may proceed with his other options, etc etc. It sounds like OP got it right.

reading comprehension ftw

Unless I am reading incorrectly, this sounds like a classic case of following the rules to the letter vs. pace of play/casual golf/etc.

He shouldn't have hit a provisional, but that's not a huge deal since you thought it might be lost/didn't know it was a hazard. But since he found the first ball he should definitely play it.

Did you check the scorecard for local rules?

So what exactly should be done here in the real world? Imagine it is impossible to return to the tee due to the group behind you being in Roid rage mode.

You hit a ball and it disappears in an area you have no idea what it is (as described). So you should hit a provisional ball in case it is lost or OB, and then hit another ball as if it is in a hazard? Then you get to the area and determine which second ball is the appropriate one to play?

Seems pretty dumb....of course if you did it this way you would be auto-selecting the return to the tee option in the case that it was found to have gone into a hazard. (clearly cannot decided to drop in case of lateral hazard becasue you don't like the way you hit your second second :-)

DpR, he found the ball in the hazard, so it seems obvious that its no problem to just drop laterally from there and continue playing. The guy simply wanted to angle shoot and take his provisional which isn't an option under the rules.

I definitely agree w you though that there are situations where following the rules exactly is just unfeasible. A good example I suppose is a lost ball in play, you aren't going to go back to the tee under normal circumstances, my friends and I always let each other drop from around the spot it was lost in that case.

It won't be often that someone will want to be laying 3 on a provisional when they could be laying 2 after a drop out of a hazard.

He should either play the ball in the hazard or play the "provisional" lying 3. Its not a red or lateral hazard. Since it's yellow he would normally have to re-tee from original spot or take line back in line with hole, which he can't do I'm assuming since the hazard is actual forest. In the interest of not going back to re-tee b/c of time just play the "provisional".

remember he hit the "provisional" with the intent of the ball being LOST not in a hazard, but in a bunch of **** on a down slope to the right of the green.

if we knew it was a hazard, we would have approached the situation different and had him just drop up there with no need to hit the "provisional"