Hey Spanky, I really don't care whether or not you believe me, I've heard the same story from enough varied sources that it is far more likely to be true than incredibly well coordinated rumor. And it's understandable if MSM wants to steer clear of something that radioactive, particularly when I am not sure he was even breaking any rules at the time. There was testing but I'm not sure if there were consequences for failure until around 2008.

Nor was I even passing judgment. I was just mentioning it. I'm sure Tiger would be tickled pink to know you're white knighting him though by attacking the character of others on THE INTERNET.

lol, you're pretty hilarious. Like as if the so-called MSM wouldn't stab their mothers for a story like that. Also it would be really fun to hear who your alleged sources are (of course that's a secret, I'm sure), because it's totally believable that little old tuq has access to incredibly well-connected individuals (and apparently quite a few of them) who seem to have total access to highly confidential PGA drug testing results -- and oh by the way also results that would unleash the biggest sh*t storm the game has ever seen -- yet somehow have also not become sources for actual professional golf journalists whose real-life full time job is to get stories like that. Like forget about Dan Jenkins or Tim Rossaforte or Rick Reilly, we've got tuq over here -- he gets the stories no one else can.

Of course it is just the slightest bit confusing why they have access to the results of the PGA tour's tests, but for some reason weren't privy to things like what the actual drug policy of the tour was back in 2008, or you know, what PEDs he was actually supposedly taking. I'm sure there's a logical explanation for that, huh?

What a joke.

Tiger never did steroids. That is laughable that people always think that

Personally, I think it is likely.

It's the world we live in now. If someone is too good at what they do they must be cheating. Sad state of affairs really.

hahaha, you're pretty worked up about this eh? Write a few hundred more frothy words.

If you don't get why they wouldn't touch the story then I guess you don't understand how the media works. Access and litigation are two very compelling reasons to steer clear. Nor do I care to try to convince you of the subject's credibility. Like who you want to like, believe what you want to believe. You just look childish when you come in guns blazing and start calling me names about something you know nothing about. And all the namecalling doesn't make it less true.

Whereas the guy quoting conspiracy theories with no facts to base them on because he's heard it from a friend of a friends dentists dogwalker who's pretty sure he heard his grandmother mention it once comes across like an adult debating...

And obv worry about access to Tigers two syllable max interview answers is keeping the entire journalistic world from going public with these facts...

notsureifserious.jpg

I'm not sure why these rumors are so easily dismissed. Certainly his body has broken down over the last 3-5 years. That may be a fluke given all the torque he generated as a younger player. Or it could be indicative of other things (ie PEDs including perhaps roids). We have seen that be a consistent pattern for players in other sports that are later revealed to have been on the juice.

I typically believe in the "where there is smoke there is fire" theory. There certainly is a lot of smoke surrounding these rumors.

OTOH I think outing Tiger would be a HUGGGGGGE scoop for a reporter or at least grab a ton of attention. As of yet that has not happened which does seem odd given the attention that he still garners even as his skill has diminished significantly.

Thanks.

It seems to me that the overwhelming majority of tiger conversation is "ignoring" this major swing change. While I can see that his lows are lower for this iteration it only seems logical given his age and injuries now vs the other three changes.

I guess this sort of conversation isn't new wrt tiger but it just seems extra inflammatory this time.

I also can't help but wonder how much of his success over the last 20 years is because of his mindset of constant improvement(ie 4 swing overhauls) vs how much of it is in spite of this mindset. Personally I tend to believe the Brandels of the world are "wrong". I don't think that if he just would have "stuck" with butch harmon he would have won 25+ majors because I think his competitive drive is linked to the desire to change/improve. That said, I'm only confident that I don't know.

I mean this is easy to say but it really is attempting to gloss over the issues IMO. Nothing about what any of us have seen can state that this incarnation of Tiger is anything but miles away from even being competitive on the Web.com.

What specifically looks good? I'd really be interested to know what that is.

That's an opinion based more on your hopes for him I believe than anything that we have seen. I have no idea why you think there will be some magical progression given the body of work this year. The Driver is an utter fiasco and really hasn't been good for quite some time (in before you cite some driving stats that make it look like he is iron Byron).

I do agree playing more makes a lot of sense and can't hurt. His whole thing about needing more reps sounds ******ed when he is so selective about when and where he plays. The range thing has been the talking point for quite some time so only time will tell.

LOL none of his changes have looked anything like this results wise. This is a debacle and an embarrassment.

Fair enough though I'd guess if we get to September and he still sucks ass the goalposts will be moved and a later date will be viewed as more indicative of where he is...just my hunch

You are using logic, that was your first mistake.




Videos of him that I have seen in practice have been quite good. Weight shift is much better, he is not so stuck on his left side as he was with Foley. The best swing he makes his hands stay more in front of him at the top of the backswing, making it easier for him during the downswing to maintain the club staying in front of him without it getting left behind. He's also gained a decent amount of club head speed with the improvements.

On the course under the gun he loses the 2nd part of this equation a lot and his tempo gets very quick. His body outraces everything, his hands and club are trying desperately to catch up and he ends up in a "stuck" position where all he can do is blow it miles right are hit nasty hooks(or cold top it )

For anyone that has never played tournament golf, it's just a different animal when you are trying to make changes. You can do it well everywhere else but when you get under the gun in a tournament you have a tendency to revert back to old habits. I know you all think it is nonsense but Tiger talks about it somewhat often and he's not wrong. First you can do it on the range, then you can do it when you're playing alone/with buddies, then he can do it during practice rounds at tournaments, then he can do it in tournaments.

He took some time off because he was so bad and we have to assume he is hitting it better during practice than he is during tournaments. Hopefully him playing more tournaments this summer will help with this. Tiger is also never going to play every week, he's playing like 7 of the next 11 events though so we will see.


None of the previous swing changes occurred post back surgery either, something that has had a huge impact on his ability to put in the necessary reps. It's also not really fair to look at the results in a vacuum, you are certainly always going to play worse for a bit when you make changes, the problem this time is he wasn't playing particularly well before he decided to change coaches.

He went from winning the Masters by 12 shots and winning his next start to redoing his swing and winning only 2 times between May of 97 and February of 99.

From Butch to Hank he went from winning 5 or 6 times a year to winning just 1 time in 2004

From Hank to Foley he went from winning 4 time in 6 starts in 08 and then 9 times in 09 to dropping Hank in early 2010, picking up Foley in summer 2010 and not winning again until 2012.

Changing your golf swing is hard. Period.

I'm no Tiger, but I would like to add that tournament golf is soooo much different. What NXT said about falling back to old habits, even if you logically KNOW they are wrong and are the problem, is pretty hard to prevent. It'll take time for anyone playing under pressure to be able to repeat "new" swings like they aren't actually "new" swings.

I'm mostly a Tiger hater except that I love watching the top level of golf to be played, so I'm rooting for him to get back into the mix, eventually.

I guess I just don't understand why people are so hell-bent on coming up with a definitive answer to "is he back or is he done?" after literally every single one of his golf swings. Especially on a poker forum where Sample Size is a real concept that nearly everyone understands. Like, can't we just sit back and watch?

All anecdotal and covering what maybe a dozen swings? But OK I get your drift.

Agreed and I have been in this exact position too when I was playing. Obv not anywhere near that level but I know how incomprehensible it can be.



No I get that. I played a ton of tournament golf (obviously nowhere near this level...though I did play in multiple USGA events)...it's harder. i also know that as we age it is harder and harder to get it back. I am just not as convinced as all the Tiger lover's are that he will automatically "be back".



Exactly or at age 38...IOW there is certainly no guarantees that these changes will "take" or that he will ever return. His body (and mind) has been through a TON over the last 7-8 years and at some point it may just no longer work the same way. Which is not to say he couldn't get it around in certain weeks or whatever but I think it is optimistic to assume that this time will be like the others. He also has never played this poorly this many times. We are talking 6 months where he is a complete non-factor (other than maybe Augusta where I believe he putted lights out).

And I agree changing the swing is brutal. It's even harder when your body has been through so much and you are not so young anymore.

But I agree time will tell.

A friend watching Tiger on range at US Open said his shots went from good to great to omg laughable,good,great,omg laughable...he had a hard time stringing 3-4 shots together and same for chipping couple good ones followed by chunks and thins.

Tiger who?

A debate would suggest that someone is trying to win. I already said I'm not in the business of trying to change opinions. Put yourself in my shoes: if you hear the same story from various reputable sources spanning years, wouldn't you be inclined to believe them? Or all they all independently making up the same story out of air even though hey have no obvious incentive to do so?

I don't need to explain myself to you or anyone else. Just call me a liar if it makes you feel good and let's move on. Whatever.

I may be naive but I consider debate to be more about exchanging facts and opinions with an aim to reach a common understanding rather than winning.

Either way - I obviously don't know what sources you have but I find it very unlikely that journalists are sitting on proof for one of sports most speculated issues without a single one of them daring to publicize it. Especially since it wouldn't be daring at all for them to do so.

I would be really surprised if there are any journalists in the world who wouldn't happily go without a single Tiger interview for the rest of his/her career to break such a story.

I've been in a few rumbles with tuq, and it ain't worth it. (and he's usually right)

The entire US press ignored rumors about Lance Armstrong and didn't report the very mounting sea of evidence until the US Govt case forced the spotlight. Even then he was treated with kid gloves until USADA report and his teammates testimony under oath. Even the "rogue" journalists in UK and Ireland who reported it were forced to do so through books primarily because their editors wouldn't print the stories. They became pariahs in the Pelton press corps. How many MLB beat writers were covering steroids during it's era? Basically none.

Having "proof" is a legally subjective term that can be argued. Look at how Braun got out of a perfectly valid test that had him. There would need to be a big payday for anybody willing to spill the goods on Tiger, because it won't go down nicely.

Even if he did the juice, so what? So many athletes did it what does it matter?

Boooooom. Nice post ctyri.

This. Media openly protected Lance for a decade.

Tiger used PEDs. I dont care that he did, but he did. His swing today sucks. His swing problems aren't mental, it's almost all technical.

I hope he finds a way to hit driver, its just sad now.

I couldn't be a bigger tiger fan (literally had him vs spieth in the last two majors, pick had to win to collect, lol me), but it is so obvious that he has been on PEDs that you must be f'ing ******ed not to think he was. I really think the general public has no idea just how many athletes are on test, etc. I still think it doesn't discount just how nasty of a golfer he is/was. I'd also be willing to bet that there are a lot of guys out there on the tour running test that you wouldn't even in your wildest dreams imagine.

I mean, they would be dumb not to use PEDs, same as in every other sport. Golf is not special in this regard.